Why don’t Christians observe the original Sabbath?

HomeChristianity and the BibleWhy don’t Christians observe the original Sabbath?
Thanks for asking!
This issue has been a sticking point between sabbatarians and the rest of the Body of Christ for some time…but it shouldn’t be. The Bible is very clear on this subject. Let’s forget for a moment about Constantine, or that the Sabbath was a sign between God and the Israelites of their covenant (and so completely out of date) and focus on God’s purpose for the Sabbath.
Let’s start in Genesis…
The word “sabbath” means “rest”. This isn’t the kind of rest we need after a good workout. The word literally means ‘the ending of activity’. God didn’t rest on the seventh day because He was tired. God had finished creating the world, and so He stopped. He didn’t pick up where He left off when the weekend was over…He was done.
Let’s move to Exodus…
God’s covenant with the children of Israel included a lot of religious activity, including the creation of a tabernacle, sacrifices of animals, and so on. This activity only stopped on the Sabbath. Now, remember: the Sabbath isn’t about being tired…it’s about being finished with your work. The priests couldn’t stop working the way that God did in Genesis. They took a day off and went right back to it the next day. Why? Because the work wasn’t finished. They did the same things day after day, year after year. They were even forbidden to have chairs in the tabernacle because sitting down would suggest that their work was done!
Let’s keep going to the New Testament…
The Exodus Sabbath was a symbol of God’s rest in Genesis. It told the children of Israel that they would someday be able to stop working…to stop sacrificing for their own sins. When Jesus died and rose again, that day had finally come. In Hebrews 10:11-12 we see the comparison between the Jewish priests and Jesus:
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest [Jesus] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
Jesus finished His work and rested, just as we see God doing in Genesis.
What about us?
How then should we view the Sabbath? God rested when His work was done, and Jesus rested when His work was done. The ancient Jews never enjoyed that rest, but it’s available to us today, as Hebrews 4:9-10 tell us:
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.
Let’s look at Colossians 2:16-17, which should erase any doubt about the nature of the Sabbath:
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
From all of these verses we can see that the Sabbath clearly isn’t a day of the week. It’s neither Saturday nor Sunday! We enter into the Sabbath rest when we stop working, and that only happens when we accept that Jesus’ sacrifice was for each of us. His work is done, and He invites us to join Him.

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Joe
Joe
November 5, 2013 11:23 pm

God rested on the 7th day and made it holy… He made THAT day holy…
It doesn’t say he temporary made that day holy, but that day (Also translated as “sanctified it”).

So if this is true, why would it suddenly not be holy now? Jesus was holy, he was always holy, no change. Same concept here.

Jesus rested on the Sabbath (Saturday) when he died. He died on Friday, rested through Saturday, even his disciples that were preparing his body for burial quit preparing him all Saturday and rested on the Sabbath (not working). Jesus rested on Saturday and rose Sunday…

The list goes on and on…

Rui de Barros
Rui de Barros
February 17, 2014 9:21 am
Reply to  Tony

You’re making a big mistake ! You have to study the OT again ! Colossians 2:16 is talking about the ritual sabbaths not the sabbath holy day ! God has a sign between Him and His people. Jesus said that He is the Lord of Sabbath not from Sunday and I’ve a document from Vatican that proves that they changed it because (they say) that the church has the power to do that. Are you keeping just 9 commandments? Because the 10 commadments are still remaining in our days. See also Exodus 16:16-30
And don’t say that it is not valid just because it is in the OT ! God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. And just because it says Old doesn’t say that it is not to do! The bible never mention the sunday as the holy day. And by the way you will keep the sabbath in new earth as Isaiah says in the chapter 66. And the sabbath is a specific day ! God was not tired on the seventh day ! He was giving us the example! And we must do the same. Blessings to you

Rui de Barros
Rui de Barros
March 9, 2014 6:31 am
Reply to  Tony Scialdone

Sure I can do that,
The bible mention two kinds of sabbaths : Sabbath seventh day the comandment and the anual sabbaths. The anual sabbaths they are connected with the history of Israel. Col 2:16,17 says quoting from KJV : Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath {days}: {in meat…: or, for eating and drinking} {respect: or, part}Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body {is} of Christ. Also Hebrews 10:1 connects the law of shadow with the animal sacrifice. Paul quoted Ez.45:17 in the same way as used in Col.2:16,17 e it is connecting to the cerimonial system Lev.23;3 presents the sabbath seventh day and Lev. 23:5-32 the cerimonial sabbaths. God bless you

Bill Duckworth
Bill Duckworth
November 4, 2018 7:36 pm
Reply to  Tony Scialdone

Jesus was killed for not Honoring the Sabbath and saying he was Equal to GOD. Judea Christian do not obey the Fulfillment of Christ Born Again from flesh to Spirit John 3:1-8 and John 3:13. (Jesus flesh to Christ Spirit) and to Love One Another in Spirit.

He said “Follow ME” to Heaven. Not leave you Ass stuck in the mud till Monday of Love Mammon of Man-Made Physical Material World

Trenton James Culbert
Trenton James Culbert
May 18, 2019 4:15 pm
Reply to  Tony Scialdone

Matthew 19:16-19 is a great Scripture to support that we are no longer to keep the Sabbath day.

Jackie
Jackie
December 29, 2020 5:55 pm
Reply to  Tony Scialdone

Would not having worship on the first day of the week, be considered giving your first fruits? Like your best? I just don’t understand why Christ death fulfilled the law with His death except a specific day of the week! Please help me understand

Dean Wilhoite
Dean Wilhoite
March 3, 2021 7:37 am
Reply to  Tony Scialdone

In The referenced scripture it is very clear that the writer is talking about “high sabbaths” as opposed to “The Sabbath Day” noted by the pluralization of the word ” sabbaths” compared to the singularity of ” The Sabbath Day” not days. Let’s strive to let the scriptures speak for themselves and not our sinful desires.

Zibah
Zibah
May 15, 2020 9:05 pm
Reply to  Rui de Barros

Zibah
Ruiz de Barros, you are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Thanks for your true knowledge on the subject. I attempted to give clarity but you as I continued to read the other comments, I came across yours. I am glad, because why would in Yochana 14:15 the Messiah ask us to keep HIS commandments, and in verse 21 HE gives HIS people further request on the observance of HIS requirements (which HE also observed), then turn around to say, “Oh that’s ok my children, live however you like” sort of speak. I mean, don’t people realize that is how the world live? WOW!!! This SABBATH issue is ONLY an issue to those who want to live as they see fit. Don’t they know that the SABBATH is AHAYAH’S “trademark”? I wonder what they think the “Mark of the Beast” is???

Michael
Michael
July 25, 2017 4:51 pm
Reply to  Tony

Hello gentlemen, I placed a comet here some time ago. I do not believe that it ever showed up LOL! I’m a Sabbath keeper who was a Sunday Christian who was actually raised by a Sunday Christian pastor who was my father. He’s the kind of guy who has a master’s degree in Divinity and a honorary doctorate if you know what I mean. Even after much debate over the years an argument with him and his peers they still have not been able to sway me from Sabbath keeping. When I was introduced to it it actually happened by mistake I found a book on Sabbath keeping on a Ledge going until the mall and it radically change my life. I tried for years to disprove it and I couldn’t. There is a ton that I can say on the subject and I really want to be part of this conversation. Currently though the most important statement I must make is referring to Colossians 2:16 which is often used to attempt to prove that the Sabbath is passed away. Unfortunately most of the translations we are reading and America have been tampered with and altered to reflect the translation team interpretation of that verse and its meaning. They have gotten away from actually stating what the versus say and they have begun to put what they believe the verse means. You can trust me 100% on this do the research and you’ll find it… The words “were or was” are not found in the original translations. When Paul wrote this verse he wrote it in a present and future tense. If you look in the original authorized versions of the Bible you will see it. He said these things are a shadow of what is coming, or these things are a shadow of what is to come, and the body that is casting the shadow is Christ. Meaning that the body that should be casting the shadow is the body of Christ. The sabbats and the feast and the festival’s were being kept by Colossians but they were being wrongfully judged by gnostics and unbelieving Jews who wanted them to continue to kill animals in order to keep the festivals. Believers who keep the Sabbath and those who keep the feast in the festival’s do salt in a christ-like joy for manner. I know I have witnessed this myself. As I have visited various Sabbath keeping organizations. In the Torah God commanded the Sabbath’I and the feasts to be kept “forever”, by all Jews, all converts & all staying with them. The disciples kept them & taught that they be kept in a Christian manner. The Sabbath’s are a solid reminder of the freedom Christ has given, and they unlock vital keys to understanding endtime Revelation. [Edited to remove a duplicate reference to a questionable resource] Honestly ask God to reveal truth to you, then read it with an open mind that you may just be wrong. If you still disagree with Sabbath after this, You likely won’t ever convert. Be blessed brothers!

Brian
Brian
October 16, 2018 11:59 am
Reply to  Tony

Tony – where does this notion that Christians are not part of the Mosaic Law come from? Paul reminds us of the new covenant that was prophesied. Hebrews 8:10 does not say that the law will be done away with, it says that He will put His laws in our minds and on our hearts. Yes it says it was for the nation of Israel, but Galatians 3:28 tells us there is neither Jew nor Greek. We are all one in Christ. Verse 29 tells us that if we have Christ, we are the seed of Abraham. We are grafted in. Christians are the nation of Israel. The law is not a curse. If we keep the law we receive all the blessings that God promised us. Don’t you want those blessings? You say the new testament is clear, so why are there so many denominations? Why did Peter warn us that a misunderstanding of Paul will lead to lawlessness? 2 Peter 3:16-17

Do you agree that Jesus was falsely accused? Do you know what the Jews accused Jesus of? What they accused Stephen and Paul of? Changing the law. Preaching against the law. They were falsely accused. It’s right there in the Bible. Deuteronomy 13 gave the Israelites a test to prove a prophet. It says a prophet will agree with the law. And if he doesn’t, they should not believe him. They believed that Jesus was coming against the law, and put him to death because of it. This test is the reason they do not accept him today still, because the Jesus that most denominations portray does not pass the test of a legitimate prophet either.

Back to Sabbath. God implemented Sabbath on day 7. There was no Jew or Israelite yet. God established this day for all mankind. And when he presented his Holy Days, He did not say that they were for the Israelite only. He said they were for the alien as well. They are His Holy Days. Nowhere does it say that they ended. The only thing that comes close to suggesting that Sunday could be implemented as a corporate day of worship is the incorrect translation of mia ton Sabbaton, to say first day of the week. Jesus rose on the weekly Sabbath. The first Sabbath in counting to Pentecost. It’s right there in Greek but nobody wants to accept it. Sunday was the Roman day of rest, for Sol Invictus, the unconquerable sun. Constantine, Rome, the Catholic church changed Sabbath to Sunday. God made Sabbath Holy, man cannot change this.

There remains a Sabbath rest and Paul intended for us to remember it. Hebrews 4:9

Brian
Brian
October 17, 2018 12:12 pm
Reply to  Tony

Thank you for responding so quickly. I do want you to understand that I shared your same opinion on the law until a couple years ago. Shortly after I was baptized in the Spirit, I was challenged to approach the Bible without preconceived notions. My eyes were certainly opened when I started believing what I read instead of just reading what I believed.

I use the word “notion” because it’s not the consensus of all God-fearing Christians. And it has not been the opinion of most churches since Acts. I will agree that it is currently the majority, but we all know what the Bible says about following the majority. There was no prophesy that the law would be done away with. There was a new covenant, but it placed that law (Mosaic law in Greek) on our hearts and in our minds. Hebrews 10:16

You are misunderstanding what Paul is telling us in Galatians 3:13. The curse comes when you choose not to follow the law. This is clearly presented in Deuteronomy 11:26. It’s a blessing for those that choose to follow it. That includes Ethiopians. Moses wife was Ethiopian coincidentally. I challenge you to read through Psalms and see what David says about the law. He certainly didn’t make it sound like a curse. Did Jesus disagree with David? Didn’t God’s Spirit give David those words? Was Paul preaching against David? Against the Law? Doesn’t that make him a false prophet by definition in Deuteronomy 13? Is that not the same law that should be on our hearts and minds? Paul asks a question that we should all take to heart. “Should we continue in sin that grace may abound?” He also answers it for us. “God forbid”. Romans 6:1 Paul does not tell us that the law is done away with and that it is a curse. Again I point to Peter who said that misunderstanding Paul leads to lawlessness. One verse suggesting the law is done, cannot stand up to the countless other verses that tell us to follow God’s commands/Law.

Sin is defined as “transgression of the law”. 1 John 3:4 That’s Mosaic law in the Greek. What does Jesus need to save us from if that law is no longer in effect? What do we need forgiveness from? Don’t get me wrong. Following the law does not bring salvation, but not following it does bring a curse. All the curses presented to the Israelites are present in churches all across the world. That’s what Paul was referring to, not that the law itself was a curse. John also tells us what it means to love God in 1 John 5:3. Loving God means following His commands, and they are NOT grievous. John also tells us that Jesus is the Word. That means Jesus IS the Law and the Prophets. Rejecting the law is rejecting Jesus.

What are your thoughts on Matthew 5:17-20? Jesus Himself said that the Law is not abolished. That’s Mosaic law in the Greek. Not one jot or tittle has passed. Are you willing to be called “the least in the kingdom of heaven” to prove your point?

What are your thoughts on Matthew 7:21-27? Jesus is telling “workers of lawlessness” (that’s Mosaic Law in the Greek) to get away from Him, as in, you didn’t pass the Throne Judgment. Not because they didn’t know Him, but because HE didn’t know THEM. The house built on a rock is likened to being wise to follow the Law. If that one doesn’t put the fear of God in you and make you reconsider your opinion of the law, I don’t know what will.

Steven Stewart
Steven Stewart
February 21, 2020 8:31 pm
Reply to  Tony

You should not be on here talking like that
We must be tolerant to other views

Serena
Serena
October 2, 2020 1:14 pm
Reply to  Tony

Hi! I’m only 15 and I’m really struggling with this law. I get scared that God will get mad if I do my school work on a Friday after sun sent because of the Sabbath. I used to honor it, but it felt law binging. So I tried steering away from it, and now I feel I’m doing something wrong. I know God is a patient and loving God, but I’m scared that He will think that I’m purposely disobey Him and willfully falling into sin. I understand being part of the mosaic law, which I’ve learned we no longer follow—and it’s amazing freedom. However, I do understand the 10 commandments still apply. It’s not 9/10. We must obey all 10. So that’s why I’m struggling with this. I am not saying you’re wrong, because I have really no opinion on it because I don’t know. So, out of 100% respect, can you please explain to me why we follow 9 out of the 10 commandments that are said to never be changed? It would help ease my mind. Thanks so much

Steven Stewart
Steven Stewart
February 21, 2020 8:24 pm
Reply to  Michael

Amen Brother
I’m going through the same struggle
Why keep just 9 comandments
The Sabbath is Gods moral law allways and forever
We are no longer under the law
But we keep it to honor our Father in Heaven

Please email me brother
I’d love to hear more about your faith

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 16, 2017 4:13 am
Reply to  Tony

He came to establish the Law not to abolish it

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 21, 2017 11:34 pm
Reply to  Tony

Do not think I come to abolish the Law I come not to abolish but fulfill. WHOEVER DISOBEYS THESE COMMANDMENTS AND TEACHES OTHERS TO DO SO WILL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 24, 2017 6:32 pm
Reply to  Tony

You are a blind guide of the blind, the Sabbath day is set apart, I belong to no denomination,read the scriptures,I can tell you this which the Lord has given me, the number of the name will be given to false teachers,who will receive the greater condemnation,james says, my brethren, not many should be teachers,you have no fear of the Lord,otherwise you would not be so quick to play with the Word of God.

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 24, 2017 11:39 pm
Reply to  Tony

John 5:22-23 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son; That all men should honour theSon,even as they honour the Father.Exodus 20:12 Honour thy Father and thy mother. 1 John 2:3-4And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:6-7 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which year had from the beginning. The old commandment is the wordwhich yeah have heard from the BEGINNING. I

G.Love
G.Love
March 1, 2018 3:59 pm
Reply to  Tony

You see, not only was I lead here by the Lord but also I was looking for confirmation on what I believed but couldn’t seem to confirm by fully regarding the Law and the fulfilment of Christ my saviour. I was looking for answers and I was lead here and specifically to this thread, upon read the to and throwing with shane and yourself Tony the Lord certainly shew me what answers needed although I’ve heard and read this NT doctrine before, but for some reason it resonated more through these chain of comments and replies. I’m glad I stumbled (no, was lead here) …not that we shouldn’t keep the commandments but rather keep the commandments through Christ who had fulfilled the law which was given to Moses; my understanding is if a person of no Christian faith in these times committed; lets say murder he is under the law of the land which is imprisonment or in some states death penalty in stead of producing 3 goats a carrot and a jellysfish to the Archbishop of Canterbury, todays standards the murderer may get a life sentence and be out in 30 years, he’s done his penance and he’s a free man to roam the earth but with out a spiritual repentance in the name of Jesus as a genuine believer this person is still going to hell as those of Moses days under the Law regardless of their offerings, however a man committed murder and was still in prison but truly gave his life to Christ and truly repented of that sin; even if he was sentenced to death in prison he would still have life in Christ therefore received through Grace. I know I’ve most probably gone the long way round to explain being under OT and NT Covenant but there really isn’t any short hand easy way to explain to others that do not understand it the way I do in being not subject to the Law of Moses, I’ve probably even cut it short and more to being under Gentile covenant, Tony thank you in essence for allowing God to use you as vessel in Jesus Name

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 25, 2017 6:10 pm
Reply to  Tony

The first temptation in the wilderness the Lord said-man does not live by bread alone,but by Every Word that comes forth from the mouth of God. The Lord showed what was profitable and what was not, it seems you are on milk, washing of hands and the like are unprofitable,the Commandments were never abolished like Christians think, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter. Revelation talks of the ones who keep the Commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ,now,if you don’t believe the word, then your discussions will be endless useless debates, at the end of the day, Righteousness sits on a Throne, he has shown us the way of Righteousness,which is obedience to God, we have freedom in Christ, stringent ceremonial Law he showed us was done away with, but not the Righteousness of the Law, the Law is carnal to the carnal mind, but it is spiritual to the spiritual mind, it is not a burden, it is a joy, the love of every word of God makes it easy, the more you question the more of a burden it becomes, you dear your mind that you do not want to obey, so your conscience is seared, God does not want us to obey his voice because we have to, in fear of going to hell, he wants us to obey out of Love and a pure heart.

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 29, 2017 9:12 pm
Reply to  Tony

Proverbs 4:1-2 Hear,ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding.For I give you good doctrine, forsake yeah not my Torah. John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them and said,My doctrine is not mine,but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself

Shane
Shane
November 2, 2017 6:53 am
Reply to  Shane Wells

Unfortunately tony,you mistake truth for insults,the truth offends,I did not say obey all 613 I said all that are the moral one’s of the 613,I don’t see why Christians find moral laws a big deal,after all you have no problem with the Sunday Sabbath, so why have a problem with the Sabbath of the Lord, it makes no sense-convince,rebuke,exhort with all long suffering and teaching, for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires,because they will have itching ears,will accumulate unto themselves teachers,and will turn their ears away from the truth,and will be turned aside unto fables,but you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions,do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry.And again-for false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you,who will secretly bring in destructive heresies,even denying the master who bought them,bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the truth will be blasphemed.You see you are mistaking Law and Commandments-2 Kings 17:37 And the statues, and the ordinances, and the law,and the commandment,which he wrote for you,ye shall observe to do for evermore, and ye shall not fear other gods.You see there is a difference between law and commandment-christians have a habit of saying we don’t need to obey the law because we are not Jews,but a true Jew is circumcised from the heart,by saying I’m not a Jew I’m avgentile you’re saying you’re not Israel,because Israel are Jews,or if you prefer Hebrews, we are grafted into them not them into us,and if it suited God to cut off the cultivated branch because of disobedience, then what do you think will happen to the uncultivated that is disobedient,the Sabbath was a gift to us,it gives us a glimpse of what is to come,you are saying by your teaching that we don’t need his ways,his commandment is righteousness, the Lord died to save us and honour his father,is it too much to ask for Christians to honour him in truth,they have no problem with the pagan festivals, is all I and others like me can do is shake our heads,and wonder how it all went so horribly wrong for the churches and their followers,l.

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 29, 2017 11:03 pm
Reply to  Tony

I am afraid for you Tony, if you still can’t find the truth in 20 years,you reject the righteousness of instruction,you can’t say I will obey 9 commandments and throw one away, I tell you a truth, we should not obey the ten commandments,we should obey all in the 613 commandments which are moral, what will you say when he says that to you.Anyone who teaches others not to obey is a liar and a thief and is trying to climb over the fence, but those who know the truth enter through him, they accept his righteousness and honour him the same as the Father, salvation is not a cheap road, Christians have made it that way.

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 30, 2017 10:55 am
Reply to  Tony

Tell me this Tony, when the apostle John says obey the commandments,what do you think he is saying. Do you have your version, do you think he was trying to trick us, do you think he was speaking in parables,what do you think he meant? I

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
October 30, 2017 6:15 pm
Reply to  Tony

It may be wiser Tony to read the whole chapter in context instead of cherry picking the verses-if you look at 3:10 Christ showed us the curse was the ritual which cannot save-again-3:13-14-again-3:15-you are annulling the covenant -again -Isaiah 24:5-6 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth and they that dwell therein are desolate :therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.Galatians 3:19 the sin offerings were added because of transgressions til messiah came-I think you are mistaking Torah instruction for ceremonial Law which cannot save, Christ would not throw the moral righteousness in the bin, he has put all things under his feet, now you have to go through him to get to the Father,he is making sure the Father is honoured in truth, as a son would,if you reject righteousness now on earth, what do you think will happen in the kingdom of there is division, he showed us the way, he is the way the truth and the life, one thing’s for sure, you can’t make anyone love every word that came from his mouth with your heart, but some of us do, we don’t look for excuses not to obey,we obey out of Love with a pure heart and a clear conscience,it says, yeah shall bind them on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And again, in those days, I will write it on their hearts and put it in their minds, and I shall be their God and they shall be my people.

Shane
Shane
October 31, 2017 4:55 am
Reply to  Tony

You sound like a very intelligent person tony,but its people like you who thought they were more intelligent than everyine else who perverted the truth,there’s no changing your mind,I feel very sad for you,if you only knew what the Lord has been doing in the earth during the last 19 months-he has chosen his anointed and has been teaching them,scoff as you may,he is fulfilling what he said he was going to do,he does not lie,he is the same yesterday, today and forever,because you don’t see things you won’t believe them,he doesn’t change, he offers you a path of righteousness, but you reject it,I beg you please turn back,obey his Commandments, this is truth,this is what the anointed will preach,come out of babylon, receive him,he’s waiting for you,to comfort you and give you rest-his name is Yehoshua and he is the Son of God.Praise his holy holy name.

Shane
Shane
October 31, 2017 8:56 pm
Reply to  Tony

I answered your question but you didn’t answer mine,you dodged it-1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him,if we keep his commandments.He that saith I know him,and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar,and the truth is not in him.You are an enemy if righteousness, you talk against righteousness, you see the commandments of righteousness are an everlasting covenant,and you can’t change that,these are the things that set us apart,and if you’re offended its because you hate the truth and there is no light in you.

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
November 12, 2017 7:44 pm
Reply to  Tony

John would say, Do not think he came to abolish the Law or the Prophets

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
November 13, 2017 7:12 am
Reply to  Tony

A rich man asked the Lord the same question,and what was his answer, he said obey the commandments,paul is not your saviour,Christ is, obey him not what you think Paul might mean, he also said to the rich man, after he said he obeys the commandments since he was young, the Lord said, you are close to the Kingdom but there’s one more thing, give all your money to the poor and follow me

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
November 13, 2017 6:18 pm
Reply to  Tony

I will add, by your last comment saying You were waiting for me to pit Paul against Jesus tells me you have come to cause division intentionally,you are a worker of iniquity,Paul is true, but you twist his words to suit yourself.

Mfitumukiza peter
Mfitumukiza peter
December 13, 2018 7:45 am
Reply to  Shane Wells

Please read hebrews chapter 4 carefully!!!

G.Love
G.Love
March 1, 2018 5:10 pm
Reply to  Tony

wow…I really feel bad for shane, I really do…sounds to me he is part of the ”hebrew israel cult”, i may be wrong, I hope I’m wrong. Dodging scriptural evidence and insults are big traits of that false egypt rooted movement

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
November 13, 2017 5:46 pm
Reply to  Tony

You are mistaken, the commandment was from creation,the mark of the beast is to do with Sabbath of the Lord and the tithe, sorry
friend when you take the word of God to heart you may see.

Shane Wells
Shane Wells
November 14, 2017 3:44 pm
Reply to  Tony

Speaking of heresy, point to me where it says in the scriptures the Sabbath was changed to Sunday, give me proof, this is your blog speaking against the word of God, show me in plain English, the Lord says my teaching is easy, show me

Robert Mendez
Robert Mendez
October 20, 2017 11:10 pm
Reply to  Tony

There is absolutely no scripturural proof, at all, that the Seventh-Day Sabbath was done away with. God did not change the Sabbath, Jesus did not change the Sabbath, after all, He kept it, and the Apostle Paul did not change the Sabbath. Show me scriptural proof that the Seventh-Day Sabbath was done away with and that Sunday is the new day of worship for Christians. The word “Law”, is a bad English translation in the Bible. If you look up that word in the original Hebrew, it is “Torah” and “Torah” means “Teaching”, Guidance”, “God’s instructions for living.” It’s a pointer to hit the mark where sin is missing the mark. You need to study the Hebraic roots of Christianity in order to really understand the Bible and God’s true intended meanings of the Bible.
There are two laws that God gave to Moses. The Ceremonial laws and the Moral laws. The Ceremonial laws were the sacrificial practices for the atonement of sins, also the washing of pots and pans and the utensils and the washing of the garments and one’s self to purify themselves. The Pharisees had later on, added more laws making these laws so legalistic that the average person could not keep them all. So when Christians use the word “Law”, they are actually relating to the legalistic rituals of the ceremonial laws and all the other added laws that the Pharisees had added to it. Jesus, of course, did away with the ceremonial laws, but did not do away with the moral laws. He came to fulfill these laws, not to do away with them. The Moral laws, are the ones that God gave, at Mount Sinai, which are written in the Ten Commandments, that are very much active and apply to all today, Christians and Jews alike!
It is very ironic, that Christians believe and only apply to only 9 of The Commandments, but do away with one, and that is the fourth Commandment, which states: “REMEMBER the Sabbath, to keep it holy….” Last I checked, the Seventh-Day still falls on a Saturday, not Sunday! I am in total agreement in Michelle’s statement earlier concerning Colossians 2:16. You must read the whole contents of this chapter to understand what Paul was referring to, especially in verse 8 of this chapter. The word, “REMEBER”, in the fourth Commandment, means that The Seventh-Day Sabbath was given for the sake of all Humanity and not for the Jews only, as some Christians believe. The Seventh-Day Sabbath was being kept way before God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai.
So the question must arise, as to who changed the Sabbath, since God himself, or our Lord Jesus, nor the Apostle Paul did not change it. So, you must go back to emperor Constantine and the Roman Church to get that answer.
Another book, that I highly recommend that you read is: “Saturday or Sunday, Which is the Sabbath”, by David C. Pack. I pray and hope that this will help you in finding out the truth concerning The Seventh-Day Sabbath, as God had made it to be. Oh, one more thing, if you read and study the whole book of Acts, you will find that both Gentiles, (of non-Jewish descent), and Jews, congregated on the Sabbath day and on Sabbath festivals. No where, is there any proof of Sunday replacing the Seventh-Day Sabbath.

Robert Mendez
Robert Mendez
October 21, 2017 11:40 pm
Reply to  Tony

Tony:
Thank you for your reply, and I must apologize that if it seemed to you that I was arguing about the Sabbath keeping. I will give you the scriptures that you asked for showing that the early Christians were already keeping the Sabbath. But before I do that, the word Christian was not used until in Antioch in Acts 11:26. Before that, they were known as either “believers” or followers of “The Way”, Acts 9:1-2. So these Believers, or followers of “The Way”, were already keeping the Seventh-Day Sabbath as per the fourth Commandment of God.
Acts 13:13-49; 14:1; 18:1-4. Nowhere in the New Testament, did the Apostle Paul tell the early Christians, or the new converts, not to observe the Seventh-Day Sabbath. My question to you is, what scripture, or scriptures, says that the Sabbath is everyday?, since God, from the very beginning, blessed and sanctified The Seventh-Day Sabbath.

Steven
Steven
June 23, 2020 9:40 am
Reply to  Tony

Hi Tony…..I’ve been been raised a Sunday going to church Christian my entire life and after watching a docu-series called the Days of Noah I got a little twisted up about the command of the Sabath. I started worrying about my salvation and went back and all night about the details. I’ve prayed and studied the very next morning and through prayer it has been revealed to me that when Jesus said “ It is finished” that meant there was nothing else needed to add to what He had done. If we were to “add” to what He had done then it would be a” works” based salvation , which would make dying a brutal death on the cross a side note. It’s a sacrifice that was given to complete the new covenant through Christ Jesus. I’ve read most of the comments on this feed and most have a great argument but ultimately the final conclusion is Jesus dying on the cross in the ultimate sacrifice one and for all because man could not fulfill his part on the OT covenant. Thank you for your blog it just confirmed everything God dropped in my heart.

YaShaYah
YaShaYah
December 1, 2017 4:49 pm
Reply to  Tony

Acts 24:11-15 (KJV) Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Gray
Gray
December 15, 2020 2:19 pm
Reply to  Tony

Hi Tony.
Reading your responses to these comments has made me feel inspired and hopeful. The responses i see you getting make mostly very angry. Let me explain as i think i can speak for so many new believers in Christ on this topic.
I am utterly exhausted, so very, very tired. I am sick and tired of looking for support in my learning of scripture and all i keep reading is scriptual swordfighting. This constant repeating of individual verses is probably the main reason why people just give up. It seems that many just want to ‘beat’ other Christians in an scriptual argument like its a game!
I always felt that the bible is an ongoing and developing instruction manual on the simplicity of GODs love and salvation. It is therefore imperative it is read in context and most importantly TAUGHT in context. Thankyou for striving to keep to context.
I have restarted my scriptual learning by watching and listening to verse by verse ministries. Going through each verse and testing its meaning is a way to find confidence in your learning path. However, when we read these comments is quite frankly scares the daylights out of us as we doubt our path. The consequences of us getting it wrong are terrifying, the consequences are eternal. . I thought giving yourself to christ gave you peace. Its not the unbelievers that take that peace away it seems to be other Christians.

Jay
Jay
January 27, 2018 6:44 pm
Reply to  Tony

The verse in Col. is misapplied. The KJV uses the phrase “sabbath days.” Notice the plural word “days.” This verse is referring to the Jewish calendar and its many sabbaths. Here is where Genesis 2:1-3 come in: the word there (rest) is Sabbath in Hebrew. Notice the context of Gen. 2:1-3. At this time, there is no sin in the world. This is key. Again, at the time of Genesis 2:1-3, there is no sin in the world. Therefore, this weekly Sabbath is not a shadow of anything to come. In other words, when sin entered, the is plenty of Biblical evidence that sacrifices pointed to Jesus….these “shadows” point to Jesus. The special days and sabbaths that are mentioned in Col. 2 refer to the special days we see in the book of Leviticus. It is these that were a shadow of the Christ to come because they pointed to Christ. The Sabbath of Gen. 2:1-3 was established in before sin.

Jay
Jay
February 25, 2018 5:11 pm
Reply to  Tony

First, you’ve misquoted me.

I did not say that there was a difference between “sabbath” and “Sabbaths”, I actually said that there was a difference between the KJV usage of sabbath days (as seen in Col. 2:16) and the Hebrew for rest on Genesis 2:1-3, which is Sabbath.

Am I right or wrong?

Secondly, scripture needs to tell you its important that there was no sin??? Are you reading what happened when Adam sinned? Life before son was perfect, its right there on the Bible. Life after sin was imperfect. Its right there in the Bible.

What was the remedy for this? The cross. It’s right there in the Bible.

Am I right or wrong?

You should research the concept of types and shadows…..it’ll provide the clarity you’re looking for….for example, the Passover ceremony was a shadow that point to the real thing, Jesus Christ.

Col. 2:16 Is proof enough of what Paul was referring to….do your research on “new moons” and sabbath days and you’ll find that these were aligned with the Jewish calendar.

New Moon references….look at the following: Numbers 10:10, Numbers 28:11, 1 Samuel 20:5, and Isa. 66:23. The new moons helped with determining months of the year.

Am I right or wrong?

You’re looking for scripture to observe Sabbath before Exodus 20 when you have no scripture that speaks against murder before Cain killed Abel.

Am I right or wrong?

Wait, didn’t Cain murder his brother? But where was the command against murder?
The moral laws were made audible to mankind. It wasn’t until Exodus 20 that they were written down.

Proof? How could God punish Cain for murdering Abel if Cain didn’t know that murder was a sin?

Think about it.

It’s clear that Cain knew that it was a sin to murder. Therefore, God’s punishment of Him was just and True. The other moral laws, including the Sabbath, were given audibly. Later they were written down by God Himself.

Isn’t murder a sin today? So is Sabbath breaking.

Fact check me….answer those right or wrong questions, and review types and shadows (I Gabe you an example of one already)

Be easy.

Bethany
Bethany
February 12, 2018 5:53 am
Reply to  Tony

The passage you are quoting from Colossians is speaking directly about pharaises or those that would try to enforce rabbinic law which is adding to the Torah (adding or taking away from Torah is forbidden in Exodus). It is not at all saying don’t do them, it is saying don’t let someone judge you on how you keep the law, the feast, and the sabbath etc. But it doesn’t mean don’t keep it. For example, do not let someone judge you for picking grain, as though that should be considered work, (as the disciples did one sabbath), if you are used to perform a miracle, like healing (such as Jesus and the disciples), then don’t let someone judge you, but if you decide it’s more convenient to go out to eat, or to the mall, or to take a long trip with drive through food stops on sabbath, you’re wrong. Don’t worry if you don’t wash your hands ceremonially three times or have a bag for your matzah at Passover. Don’t worry if you eat a cheeseburger, against rabinic law but not Gods law, but don’t eat pork because that is expressively written not to do. Be careful because teachers are held to a higher standard. God is the same always and He never changes. So, did He change his mind about not changing (rhetorical)?

The laws God gave are not difficult to keep, and no one person could keep all of them because some are for men, some for women, some for priest, some for soldiers, and so on; regardless of what people think we cannot be both male and female, husband and wife etc. So we cannot keep all the commandments, but we can keep those applicable to our assignment, gender, role etc. Also, all of the ones that involve punishment and retribution cannot be kept because his judges and temple and preist are not here on Earth currently, a requirement, prerequisite really, for any judicial renderings, so we don’t have to stone adulterers or children that curse their parents (the people were actually sinning trying to stone the adulterous woman that Jesus freed of her sin because they didn’t have testimony judged by judges or a priest, put in place by God, to confirm its truth) . We, in fact, shouldn’t exercise capitol punishment (because our system has no involvement with Gods righteous rulings) and we don’t have slaves (though the Bible has been conveniently used to abdicate slave owners of colonial times). In Hosea 6:6 God says he would have preferred mercy over sacrifice and obedience over offerings. He’s always preferred we behave, like any parent, but the spirit of rebellion can be relentless. Pray, seek Yahweh and truth and Yeshua’s sacrifice will not be in vain.

A lot of people pay attention to the verse where people say Lord Lord we did this and that all in your name and He says “get away from me you workers of lawlessness, I never knew you”. (Matthew 7:23) but they focus on who’s going to hell. Who was really doing the “miracles” these people witnessed and performed? Yeshua said plain as day He never knew them, so it wasn’t Him and it wasn’t The Father. If we focus on that, we see that Satan is deciving many in the church and the body thinking they are doing for God and in His name. However, God says plain as day all throughout the Bible that if you don’t abide in the commandments your prayers are detestable to him. Satan can give someone “the world” as he told Yeshua in the desert. So he can certainly perform a fake miracle. Be vigilant or perish for lack of knowledge. Don’t blaspheme The Most High and say He has changed, something He promised never to do. Repent of sin and follow The Lord with your heart and your soul and your might. May Elohim have mercy on us and may we cleave to His sent savior Yeshua Hamashiach for everlasting life worshipping Him at His feet in His holy righteous presence! Hallelujah Amen

Liz
Liz
August 5, 2020 11:23 am
Reply to  Tony

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.Matthew 24

Matthew 5:19
19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Serena
Serena
October 2, 2020 11:07 pm
Reply to  Tony

Thanks for answering my questions. I do however know the Christians have separated the moral, civil, and ceremonial laws. So wouldn’t the 10 commandments be our moral law to follow? Sorry I just get confused

Bryan
Bryan
October 23, 2020 7:13 pm
Reply to  Tony

I think you are very smart and the one word is very important though ‘remember’ it’s kind of like he thought he wouldn’t have to repeat it if we stayed obedient

Julian
Julian
November 19, 2020 9:31 am
Reply to  Tony

Animal sacrifices were prescribed after the fall of man. That is why they point to Jesus. Laws that dealt with washing away sins pointed to Jesus. However, the Sabbath has nothing to do with washing away sins as it was created before sin. My question to you is would slap away any of God’s other commandments as open to interpretation? Well we shouldn’t steal but not because God’s commands it. Just because its the right thing to do. God’s says if you love me, keep my commandments and Paul says faith without works is dead. Yes we are not bound by Mosaic Law. But its pretty obvious that God set the 10 commandments apart from those laws. They were the only ones written in stone.

George
George
November 22, 2020 10:16 pm
Reply to  Tony

Tony, I strongly suggest you erase this whole post and thread. You will be judged heavily on every word, every reply. These people have come to warn you about this, it’s not debatable. I pray you will honor the Lord Jesus Christ and remove this deception and blasphemy. May God be with you. Amen.

Daniel Bjorndahl
Daniel Bjorndahl
October 21, 2017 4:11 pm
Reply to  Joe

Jesus did not contradict anything His Father ordered – how else could he say, I and my Father are one? The Sabbath is still Holy – none of God’s Words has ever or will ever fail. Pharisees will quote this verse as an excuse not to obey the sabbath, however I see this verse as protection against the judgement of the Pharisees who believe they can pick and choose which of the ten commandments are still valid. Imagine a church teaching that it’s okay to commit murder! Yet this, the Sabbath, of the ten commandments is perhaps most habitually neglected. Even those who claim a specific day of the week (i.e Saturday vs Sunday) often go out to eat after church, which would be compelling someone else to work on the day of rest. I consider it a blessing to strictly honor the Sabbath.

Of all the commands in the Bible, I don’t see how “please don’t work for a day” could be perceived as a burden!

Daniel Bjorndahl
Daniel Bjorndahl
October 21, 2017 11:00 pm
Reply to  Tony

Gentiles were included in the Mosaic covenant Numbers 15:15.

Jesus did not abolish the law and he said so himself. I will attempt to abide by the 613 as best I can. I am covered by God’s grace if I fall, but I have my mind set on obeying God as if he truly were the same yesterday today and forever. I suspect you disagree that Jesus did not abolish the law.

Robert Mendez
Robert Mendez
October 22, 2017 1:01 am
Reply to  Tony

Tony;
I must totally disagree with you that you say that the Sabbath was a command of the Mosaic Covenant. First of all, God did not make a covenant with Moses, as regard to the Ten Commandments, also known as the 10 statements of God.
God used the word, “REMEMBER” to keep the Sabbath day holy, as a reminder that the Sabbath was not a new thing establish at Mount Sinai. The Sabbath was already being kept, way before the wilderness experience. And secondly, the Sabbath was not made for the Jews only but for all mankind, as established in Genesis 2:1-2, even before God created Adam. You seem to forget, my brother, that Gentiles are grafted into the root of the Olive Tree, the Jewish roots of Israel, as the Apostle Paul stated in Romans 11:17-24, because of the acceptance of Jesus as Lord and Messiah, so Gentiles are also blessed into the Abrahamic Covenant, as long as Gentiles keep God’s Commandments. Jews and Gentiles are no longer separated, but are one in the Messiah; both blessed in the blessings of Abraham; and both keeping the same Commandments of God in keeping the Sabbath day holy. I don’t know how you can say that Covenant is no longer in force since Jesus himself is our example and kept the Commandments of God. After all, He was in the beginning with God, as stated in the first chapter of John, thus making Jesus, the author, the maker, and creator of the Sabbath. That is why Jesus said, in Matthew 12: 8, that the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath. He is the Master and Owner of the Sabbath. Jesus is the one that Blessed and Sanctified the Seventh-Day Sabbath. Again, I must remind you, that the word Law, is an incorrect english translation. The word is actually, Torah, which means, God’s instructions, His guidance, for Holy and Pure living, and that, my brother, has not been done away with!

Milton Kent
Milton Kent
December 9, 2018 4:40 pm
Reply to  Joe

Yahushua died on a Wednesday, the day before the high Sabbath came in.
As the scripture says, Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. That’s 72 hours, you can’t get 72 hours from Friday to Sunday.
He went into the heart of the earth Wednesday before the sun went down, and rose at the end of the regular Seventh Day Sabbath, which would have Him in the ground for 72 hours, three days and three nights. From Friday to Sunday would be
(Fri) 1 Night, (Sat) 1 day, (Sat Eve) 2 Nights and (Sun.) at dawn is not even a full day. That Wednesday He was Crucified was a preparation day because the Passover was about to come in at eveing, which made that evening the beginning of a High Sabbath.

Keely
Keely
May 5, 2019 8:35 pm
Reply to  Joe

He didnt die on friday. There were 2 sabbaths that week. Feast sabbath and regular weekly sabbath. very common mistake. Cant get 3 days and 3 nights from friday to sunday.

Mary
Mary
January 25, 2020 11:46 pm
Reply to  Joe

There were 2 Sabbaths .day of .preparation was the crucifixion before the evening of Passover ..Christ was the Passover Lamb…they had to get Christ into the tomb before sunset..Passover..he was in the tomb..Wednesday sunset..to Thursday sunset #1 remember 72 hrs he was in the tomb Thursday-Friday#2 Friday-Saturday sunset..#3. ..Christ rose Saturday sunset..everyone was gone keeping the Sabbath, it was early Sunday while it was still dark that Mary Madeline found the stone rolled back..Christ had risen Saturday .. Christ is lord of the Sabbath now.. the Sabbath day never changed..it is the 7th day of the week..one of the Ten Commandments is to keep the Sabbath day Holy..Chris rose to fulfill the law..not to abolish it.. love the lord God with all your heart and with all your soul , and with all thy mind. Thou shall love your neighbor as yourself. God is a Spirit, and they that worship him Must worship him in Spirit and the Truth.

Lu
Lu
May 15, 2020 8:32 pm
Reply to  Joe

Hi Joe; I am Lu, and I want to say a couple of things.
1. Yashayah said that he would be in grave for 3 nights, AND 3 days. So Him being buried on Friday will not add up to Sunday being the 3rd day.

2.. The definition for SABBATH is correct; also you stated that it was SANCTIFIED, BLESSED, & HOLLOWED. Which is correct as well. Saying that,I want to add, of ALL HISS commandments, if you notice, is the ONLY one HE put an importance on , that we should remember it, observe it, and that it is (even today) , a sign between HIM & HIS people. (Ezekiel 20:12)

Richard Bekker
Richard Bekker
July 24, 2020 3:55 am
Reply to  Joe

Hi good day, interesting to see how they defend the Sabath. I have been a Seventh Day Adventist for many years, but left the church. When you are a SDA, you believe it’s what you have to do. Today I know it is not what I have to do, but what Jesus did. The Bible says, our works are like filthy rags. The ten commandments was given to Israel and it was a covenant between God and them. It was not for us . The Bible says, the law was given as a teacher, till Jesus came – Gal 3:23 -25. The Bible says that if the old one (the law) was good, it would not be necessary for a new one. The Bible also says, it’s not the same as the old one, it’s a better one. One of the main reasons they crucified Jesus, was because He worked on the Sabbath. When they questioned Jesus because he worked on the Sabbath, He said to them, I only do what I see my Father is doing. The Father works all the time, even on the Sabbath. Jesus said to the Farrisiers, aren’t you working, when you preach on the Sabbath day ? (What else do the pastors do, when they preach ) .The Bible says , you either live by Grace (faith) or the law. If you live by the law, you will be judged by the law. If you live by grace, you will be judge by grace. In other words, you have the law or Jesus. I rather will be judge by Grace. The Bible also says , if you break one of the law, you broke them all. A lot of SDA believe that they do not sin, or must not sin to enter into heaven. T hat’s exactly how the Fariseers were thinking, that they do not sin. The Bible says, there’s not even one person without sin. You can not keep the law, that’s why you need Jesus. It’s not about you, its about Him !! Its not what you do, but what He did.
Does ithis mean that I can go now and sin. No, but I have the Holy Spirit in me, that leads me to the full truth How will I know when I sin , if I do not have the law. There’s a lot of sin that are not mentioned in the law, eg; Use of dirty language, fighting, gossiping, abortion, homosexuality, etc. The word law or commandments are not always referring to the 10 commandments. Most of the time it refers to the Word of God, unless it indicates 10 commandments. The Bible also says; that Aaron, Abraham and many more were saved by faith and not by the law. I am righteous, not because what I do, but what Jesus did and will not be saved by what I do, but what Jesus did.

Christina
Christina
November 3, 2020 5:14 am
Reply to  Joe

Hi Joe. I agree with you completely. Only I’d like to point something out to you. I think you will appreciate studying this. Yahshua (Jesus) did not die on Friday. He died on the day before the 1st day of unleavened Bread which is considered a high holy day or Sabbath which in that year would have fallen on a Wednesday. In Yahuahs (Gods) timetable days are from sunset to sunset, and Yahshua died around 3:00 on Wed. He Rose sometime during the Sabbath ( 3 days and 3 nights). The women coming to His tomb didn’t witness His resurrection, because He had already risen by the time they got there early on the 1st day which was probably right after sunset. The only sign given by Yahshua to His disciples the He was the Messiah was that of the sign of Jonah. That He would be 3 days and 3 nights in His tomb. Blessings to you

Jeannette
Jeannette
December 7, 2020 1:46 pm
Reply to  Joe

The book of Hebrews explains the difference between “Shadow and Substance”. And in Isaiah 58:13 it says (emphasis added):
“If you turn back your foot from the Sabbath,
from doing your pleasure[c] on my holy day,
and call the Sabbath a delight
and the holy day of the Lord honourable;
if you honour it, NOT GOING YOUR OWN WAYS,
OR SEEKING YOUR OWN PLEASURE,[d] or talking idly;[e]
14 then you shall take delight in the Lord,
and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;[f]
I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

I hope that makes sense

Cristina
Cristina
December 11, 2020 10:28 am
Reply to  Jeannette

Jeannette, your post makes sense if all we read is this text in the Bible and not the rest of the Bible, especially the New Testament.

I have come to believe that those who keep pointing to the Old Testament have a spiritual veils that won’t allow them to understand the full picture and what happened when Jesus died for us. As a matter of fact in 2 Corint 3:14-15 Paul says that even to this day when Moses is read a veil covers their heart. What does this mean? To me that means that your hearts aren’t open to the Truth, and the Truth is Jesus.

Sabbath keeping was an extremely important part of the law in the OT, the punishment for breaking how the Israelites were instructed to keep it, was death. And it wasn’t a matter of only staying home and not turning on your TV, Israelites had to do a loooot of things to keep it, please study it in detail. Are you doing all that?
As a matter of fact, breaking the Sabbath was one of the reasons they tried to kill Jesus (John 5:16-18). Keeping the Sabbath as well as all the other 600+ laws was the only way to get right with God UNTIL He sacrificed His life for our sins. I’ve noticed that many Sabbath keepers (whom I personally know, not saying its you necessarily) don’t really acknowledge the big change that occurred after Jesus died for us and how our relationship with Him changed entirely.

We are living under a New Covenant and my opinion is that those who don’t clearly see the GRANDIOSITY of His sacrifice and truly understand the concept of Salvation by Grace ALONE, are not focused on Jesus and continue to be focused on the OT ways which in turn puts all the focus on themselves and their abilities. We can’t do anything for ourselves, and anything that we can do for God comes from Him.

I will close this very length post by saying that you should pray for discernment, which can only come from the Holy Spirit and study the entire bible. Study Paul’s 13 Epistles and see how the focus changed from the law, before Jesus, to Grace and Faith after his death and resurrection. Jesus came to free humanity from the bondage of law keeping.

Jeannette
Jeannette
December 18, 2020 11:16 am
Reply to  Cristina

Hi Cristina

You seem to have the idea that I’m neglecting the New Testament in favour of the Old, which is very far from the truth. I actually agree with all you said!

What I meant in the previous comment was that even the Old Testament taught that Sabbath-keeping was not about slavishly keeping a set of rules, and in their case making the appropriate sacrifices. Or generally “Doing one’s own thing”.

It’s impossible to separate the two parts of the written Word of God, but when the LIVING Word came He showed us, through the Spirit, what He really meant when He wrote it! As Hebrews 1:1-2 says, He is God’s ultimate revelation.

I love Paul’s testimony in Philippians 3, how he had everything, humanly speaking, an impeccable pedigree, the best theological education, kept the letter of the Law “Perfectly”… BUT he let it all go for the sake of knowing Christ!

And in Galatians he enlarges on what he learned – that the true purpose of the Law of Moses was to show us that it is impossible to keep it. That “The law was our teacher to lead us to Christ”.

But again the Old Testament says that already. That there was One coming called “The Lord our Righteousness”, who would put the true Law – the true spirit behind the outward rules – in the heart through the new birth. (Jeremiah 23:6, 33:16, and 31:32-34. Ezekiel 36: 11:19, 36:26).

That’s why Jesus was astonished that Nicodemus did not understand the need to be born again – it was THERE in their own scriptures!

Joe
Joe
November 12, 2013 8:06 pm

Thank you for your response. I was taught that the bible reference you quoted talked about Jewish Sabbaths (holidays and Old Testament practices), not Saturday Sabbath.

If we no longer need to keep the Sabbath, do we no longer need to keep any of the other 9 (of the 10) commandments either? “jesus came to fulfil the law not abolish it.”

Michael
Michael
July 25, 2017 5:01 pm
Reply to  Tony Scialdone

Hey Joe,
In the original language, what Jesus said was he came to “complete” the law. Study & you will see this is a more accurate translation. Still though fulfill does not mean “delete or do do away with”. This is why he made sure to say “I Did NOT come to change or abolish the law, I came to full fill or “complete” it. To provide what it’s missing, give it life, provide the power, “the icing on the cake”, bring it to pass.
He via the holy ghost has provided the power for us to “Properly Keep the Commands” in “Love” and not a hard rebellious heart”. That’s why he says “if u live him you “keep the Commands” and they are “Not” burdensome to keep now. Paul and all the diciples make it clear that if you claim Jesus/Yesgua, you “must depart from Sin”. Breaking the “10”, is Sin. The tablets establish what is Sin.

Keely
Keely
May 5, 2019 8:37 pm
Reply to  Tony Scialdone

Jesus didnt fufilly the law. It say that not one jot or tiddle will be changed until he comes back.

ellie
ellie
August 8, 2016 11:08 pm
Reply to  Joe

The ten commandments were given by God to follow, and if not we are the ones who will suffer the consequences. The Shabbat is a commandment, period. Jesus observed the Shabbat because it is the law. his disciples did because it is the law. why don’t we?. when we don’t, we disobey our Lord.

jon
jon
November 30, 2016 7:20 am
Reply to  Tony

im not a intelligent man nor academic man im following god and jesus an im trying to change my life i use to rest on a sunday now i rest on a saturday and work on a sunday now i agree with ellie god give us a comamand so we have to keep this i will do every thing jesus did he kept the sabbath so will i, how i founf this site is im trying my hardest to be one with godand jesus and im trying not to get decceived by man so im reseaching every thing about the bible i do it on line as i just carnt get way with books

Diuz
Diuz
October 6, 2017 7:55 am
Reply to  Tony

Hello Friend,

I have a question. When God finished his creation he made the seventh day and he rested. The observance of the Sabbath was from the beginning of creation. Now the promise made to Abraham was that he was going to be father of a great Nation which we now know as Israel. So the Jews started here Adam and Eve weren’t Jews. And it came to pass that all of Gods people kept the sabbath including our Savior Jesus Christ,his disciples, the apostles and the early Christians churches. So if God kept the sabbath and Jesus kept the sabbath why aren’t Christians following Jesus. Instead they choose to follow what man did who changed the day of worship from the seventh day to the first. in revelation 14:12 during the judgement the people of of GOD are clearly distinguished “Those who keep the Commandments of God and the faith of Jesus Christ. Now Jesus Faith in his Father was unwavering and we should also try to practice it as christian and rely on God, whatever he came across he always seeks guidance from his Father. If you dig more into history you will find that Sunday worship was implied by a Roman Emperor in 300 A.D, who wanted to get Christians ,idol and sun worshipers on the same page( Constantine).
Constantine created the earliest Sunday law known to history in AD 321. It says this:

On the venerable Day of the sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits: because it often happens that another Day is not so suitable for grain sowing or for vine planting: lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.ii

Chamber’s Encyclopedia says this:

Unquestionably the first law, either ecclesiastical or civil, by which the Sabbatical observance of that Day is known to have been ordained, is the edict of Constantine, 321 A.D.iii

All the commandments, there is only one relating us to God. Which man, God the Father and God the Son observes.That is the Sabbath. From the Beginning of the Creation. So this is my question if it designed by God why would anyone do otherwise? We are indeed saved by Grace, but how can we keep in check if there is no guideline to help us.

Diuz Tuberi
Diuz Tuberi
November 13, 2017 8:24 am
Reply to  Tony

My Dear Friend,

Exactly my point, God doesn’t need rest, He did it for us. If the Sabbath was a creation of God and all through the bible it was kept, Including Jesus our Savior. He said the Sabbath was made for men. Than why would anyone would ever want to take away what God created, because what God creates is everlasting and only He can change it. Just like the original plan for men, to live forever and the bible day from sundown to sundown. Now if we try to change it we are becoming like someone who tried to be like God. So we should be like our Saviour and follow what he did. If we dont than we are no longer concentrating on his examples and we are carrying forward what we want to think is the truth

Thank You.

Diuz Tuberi
Diuz Tuberi
November 13, 2017 10:53 pm
Reply to  Tony

Yes of Course Only in the scriptures : Isaiah 8:20
To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
We find in Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.(This also in Mark 13:31 and Luke 21:33).
So on the account of creation Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

From Creation God wanted Man to be like Him that includes Eternal life. Adam and Eve was even granted a free pass in a life without the knowledge of sin but Our Almighty God Couldn’t take away their freedom of choice.

Genesis 2:16-17 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Of course God Knew Eve and Adam was going to be tempted and fail so why didn’t he take away the tree of knowledge??? It is because he loved them, because if He did than don’t you think he would be controlling and that is not Love. We need to look at ourselves for this point, If Some takes away our freedom of choice we won’t like it and we feel unloved, even wars are being Fought for liberation of freedom.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8,

6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, and always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

If God love’s in John 3:16 is to give up his only begotten Son to die for Us. Than his love is true, trusts in us and also hopes for us. Even though Adam had failed God, God’s love didn’t fail because Revelation of 13:8 Jesus chose to die for our Sins from the beginning.

If what you suggest is true than we were created to die. And that doesn’t sound like Love don’t you think. Even Satan faulted and he took 1/3 of the Angels did that stop God from Giving the freedom of choice. He let them choose for themselves.

He didn’t create man to die instead he created a way out for us, Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

In Mathew 5 Jesus said

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Exodus 31:18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.

This is not Moses’s law, God wrote it down with his Fingers, It directly appeals to our morals. God wrote it for Moses to keep, It was not for Him.

Deuteronomy 6:6-7 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up

You failed to mention in acts chapter 15 that the Council letters to the gentiles also mentioned: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.

Now we see in James 2:10 – 12 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. For He who said, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ also said, ‘Do not murder.’ If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.”

Romans 3:27-31 29 IS HE THE GOD OF THE JEWS ONLY? IS HE NOT ALSO OF THE GENTILES? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO:

30 SEEING IT IS ONE GOD, WHICH SHALL JUSTIFY THE CIRCUMCISION BY FAITH, AND UNCIRCUMCISION THROUGH FAITH.

31 DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: YEA, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.

Here the Scriptures talks about People who choose 1 John 2:4-6

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 BUT WHOSO KEEPETH HIS WORD, IN HIM VERILY IS THE LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED: HEREBY KNOW WE THAT WE ARE IN HIM.
6 HE THAT SAITH HE ABIDETH IN HIM OUGHT HIMSELF ALSO SO TO WALK, EVEN AS HE WALKED.(Very Important: It is not dying on the cross as you had pointed out but to do as he did follow him ways )

Luke 9:23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

And During our Judgement in Revelation 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Why Should we keep the Law if we are not saved by the Law ??

If we have Faith in God’s Grace and we choose what we want to do than we are not letting God take control of our lives but we choose when to let him in.
Proverbs 16:9 In their hearts humans plan their course, but the LORD establishes their steps.

It all Come down to Love
Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh ; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

John 14:15, “If you love Me, keep my commandments.”

Diuz
Diuz
December 1, 2017 5:22 am
Reply to  Diuz Tuberi

Reposting

Hello Tony,

I cannot Find a reply Link to your Latest Comment. Your reply is interesting because you seem to be Implying that God becomes different for different races.

I think we both agree on this 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: So The Bible is there to help us and to show us the way.

And God nor his Word Does not Change:

Isaiah 40:28
Have you not known? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary; his understanding is unsearchable.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change; therefore you, O children of Jacob, are not consumed.

Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

Psalm 119:89 Forever, O Lord, your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.

Isaiah 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

1 Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Now you have suggested That The ten Commandments is for the Israelite only

“That’s a good question, but a better question is whether the Law ever applied to anyone outside of ethnic and national Israel” and ” What is the context of Isaiah 8:20? It’s a warning to Israel against consulting mediums and spirits.”

But the Bible say’s :

Romans 3:29-31
29 IS HE THE GOD OF THE JEWS ONLY? is he not also of the gentiles? YES, OF THE GENTILES ALSO:
30 SEEING IT IS ONE GOD, which shall JUSTIFY THE CIRCUMCISION BY FAITH, AND UNCIRCUMCISION THROUGH FAITH.
31 do we THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we ESTABLISH THE LAW.

GOD’s Ten commandments really covers our morality and how we should live to choose what is right and what is wrong. It points out what sin is: No matter where we look for how not to sin it all come’s back to God’s Commandments.

So my point in acts 15: the letter addressed to the Gentiles mentions food offered to idols and sexual Immorality it point back to the Commandments. Food offered to idols this point to the first commandment Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. and Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery. You might Argue that fornication is not adultery but in Genesis 2:24-25 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.”

So Sex is only right when we are married and become one. also in 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 it talks about sex in marriage.

So 1 John 2:3 Says this: By this we can be sure that we have come to know Him: if we keep His commandments.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

So was Gods law against sin intact from the beginning ? Yes, of course. Isaiah 14:12–15: (Satan Wanting what God Has and to become worshiped be Like God). God is the Creator and His Commandments States that Clearly He is the Only God. But if there was no commandment would Satan have sinned? Would you or me be sinful and need saving. Of Course not, if there was no Law than we would be sinless and if we are sinless than we don’t need saving and don’t acknowledge Jesus Christ .

We see in the book of John this become clearer that we are saved by Jesus who took away our sins but it also warns if you sin or break the law you do not know him

John 3:4-6 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

(So we can establish that sin is breaking the law)

:4 If anyone says, “I know Him,” but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him

Romans 7:12 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

I don’t about what you think about this but it is very simple to me. Now King David was led astray most of the time but he always seeks God and knows that God’s commandments will straighten his path again.

Psalm 119: 172-176

172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for ALL THY COMMANDMENTS ARE RIGHTEOUSNESS.
173 Let thine hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.
174 I have longed for thy salvation, O Lord; and thy law is my delight.
175 Let my soul live, and it shall praise thee; and let thy judgments help me.
176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

So The Sabbath in the bible:

The Sabbath was created by God during creation it was part of God’s creation and he sanctified it and blessed it.

Well if God Rest’s on the Sabbath and he blessed it don’t you think we should do the same too(Not bless the Sabbath, only God can do that ) We should respect and honour God ?

Well if He loved us so much and did so much for Us, why would you ever want to do otherwise.

Matthew 22: 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

John 14:15, “If you love Me, keep my commandments.”

So as I have earlier stated. It is all about Love……

So this is My Point If you Worship on the Sabbath we are acknowledging God and His Creation, we acknowledge we are sinful by referring to the commandments and we need Jesus.

So if we worship on Sunday we are acknowledging what man has created and if we try to Justify it, we will always fall short. And if we Choose another day to worship we are acknowledging our own theories to lead us astray and others who listen to us astray.

Richard Bekker
Richard Bekker
July 24, 2020 4:12 am
Reply to  Joe

Correct, the 10 commandments were given to Israel and not for us and that’s why Jesus came to give us a new law. If you keep the law , you will be judge by the law. It’s not what you do, it’s what Jesus did and that’s why He is the end to the law.

Ya'kar
Ya'kar
December 10, 2014 11:47 pm

The Sabbath is the 7th day of the week.It was Paul’s custom to keep the Sabbath .Now if the Sabbath was done away with then Paul preaching on the Sabbath was vanity.We are still living in the new testament.Also scipture says lawlessness is sin.So besides Gods commandments what law are you keeping?

Michael
Michael
July 25, 2017 5:12 pm
Reply to  Tony

Hey Tony,

Paul & Jesus made it clear that we who chose to follow Christ are now the true Jew & the true Israel. That’s why he said no longer go to the Jews but go to the gentiles, because they rejected him. The non Jews saw him for who he was and wanted to follow him to learn the truth path to the father. In the Torah the Jews were the representative s of the Father, so his perfect will for “Mankind” was given to them, but once they rejected him, and stoned Stephen, the right transfered to anyone who would follow. The 10 are his “guideline” for living. Think for a minute… If the Jews had completely excepted Messiah as king, we all know The father would have used Rome to crucify him alone, but they would have as Jews continued to keep Sabbath, and anyone who came to Christ would do the same. Or would we be a split family… Where one kid fellowship s on Sat & the other on Sunday lol. No, it makes no sense. Paul affirms it by saying there is no loner Jew, nor Greek, but one new man in Christ! Using the argument the the “10” was for Jews is not strong. We are Israel.

kcm
kcm
January 30, 2015 11:25 pm

Matthew 5:17-19
17- Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. (This verse alone proves that Jesus didnt’ destroy any law, or take away any law, when he died on the cross.)

18- For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (This verse is saying not even one jot, smallest hebrew letter, or one tittle, smallest hebrew word, can pass from the law of God.) God says not even one jot can pass from the law, and your telling me that the sabbath, one of the laws, is no longer necessary and out of date? That’s a very dangerous thing to say since God has said nothing can pass from the law, especially one of the very commandments.

19- Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So before you deny what I’m saying, take these verses into consideration. You can see God is very serious about his law. Anyone who changes it will have to have an answer to God.

Michael
Michael
July 20, 2017 2:11 pm
Reply to  Tony

Hello Sir, great argument. I am a 7 day keeper as well. I’ve attempted to disprove the need to with no success lol for many years now. I woul love to debate here or by email with you. I am not harsh or close minded. To start though, I must point out something to you. The Bible translation you are using for Colossians 2 is fully incorrect. It was pointed out to me by a gentleman who was neutral on the subject. I’ve looked at the translations and found this to be true. I researched this one passage for years lol. It actually states, a shadow of things “to” come. Not “were to” come. After looking at this for some time myself I realized and I was told buy actual Sunday keepers who are scholarly that over the years since the majority of Christians we’re convinced that the need to keep the Sabbath in the festival’s had passed away, the Bible translators began to insert “were” . Which never should have been done they took it upon themselves to alter scripture to give the meaning that they all feel is the correct meaning. So the verse actually reads let no one judge you in keeping Sabbath or festivals Etc… As of these are a shadow of the things that are to come or the things that are coming. Trust me if you do a study yourself into the Hebrew Greek with an open mind you will see this for yourself. There isn’t Highly Educated Sabbath keeping organization called the United Church of God. They wrote a book called Sunset to Sunset. It’s pamphlets eyes and a very interesting read historically you would probably enjoy it even if you are not a Sabbath keeper. But it lays out a lot of the true history of Sabbath keeping. In this book they tell you that if this verse in Colossians is kept in its proper and correct context then what the apostle was actually doing was telling people not to allow themselves to be judged for keeping the Sabbath and the festivals in a christ-like manner. Because these things are a shadow of what is to come. This organization unlike the Seven Day Adventist who I know very well believe that we should still as Christians beekeeping the festivals in the fees throughout the year as it ties us into our Christian judaic Heritage. And continually keeping the festivals in the feast in a Christian manner of course not killing animals or anything like that LOL causes you to see Christ in a deeper manner than you can possibly imagine and it also reveals Secret After secret about in time prophecy. I’m not a member of their church but I did study some of their Doctrine and found it to be extremely accurate. After studying almost all of the Bible translations I find the safest to use in the ESV. I actually found in one of the study Bibles that they pointed this out about Colossians. They fairly stated that this verse is one of debate for which day should be kept as the Sabbath and they worded it correctly. Must other versions will go with switching the tents that the Apostle actually wrote down with his own hand. The Apostle wrote down these things are a shadow of what is to come or a shadow of what is coming, he did not say these things are a shadow of what was to come or these things were a shadow of what was to come. I hope this makes sense please look into it for yourself and let me know what you find. If you take a very close look into New Testament scripture you may find that there are truly no verses that delete the 7th Day Sabbath. Think about it, all of the other nine are still binding principles that a Christian has to practice why would God delete the fourth??? He wrote them and stone with his own hand. And yes Jesus did fulfill and if you look closer what he really said was that he completed the law. Fulfill their means to complete or to finish. He did it by removing the ceremonial law which was based around blood sacrifice. But we know 100%by the testimony of all Paul’s letters and by the testimony of Jesus and by the testimony of John the Revelator. That the moral ethical law has not in will not passed away. Jesus supplied the actual Power by way of the Holy Spirit to go inside of us and to actually help us to keep the moral and ethical laws the way they are supposed to be kept in love toward man too kind and towards the father. Which is why he states that all the Commandments hang upon these to love your neighbor as yourself and love the Lord your God with all your heart and all of your mind. Please have an open mind and look into this. Be blessed!

ES
ES
May 18, 2015 7:36 am

– Yes Paul was a Jew. But he converted didn’t he? Aren’t Christians those who believe that Jesus Christ is their Savior and follow Christ? Is that not what Paul did? Paul was a convert and he still kept the Sabbath.

-Yes, God made a covenant with the nation of Israel. But today we still keep those commandments. Do you not withhold from murdering, or worshiping other Gods, or stealing, or coveting other people’s things, or keeping statues or images of Jesus and God? If you do, why not keep the other commandment listed among these, which is keeping the Sabbath day? James 2:10

– Jesus kept the Sabbath day. Except in those instances where he did not he was doing God’s work and healing people. But that is different than not keeping Sabbath all together, and engaging in activities such as watching TV, or cooking, or doing other worldly things.

– Also, God made the Sabbath holy, and there are biblical examples of how the Sabbath can only be on THE Sabbath day, and not any day we choose. There is a bible passage that tells of how Moses told the people of Israel not to collect more grain than a day’s worth. However, some people disobeyed and collected twice as much so they would not have to return the next day, I believe. Then their food became rotten. But when they were picking their food on Friday, the day before Sabbath, Moses instructed them to pick twice as much so that they would not work on Sabbath. And the food did not rot, because it was for the Sabbath day. Sabbath is not about setting any other day of the week for God. It is doing it how God commanded it. We cannot do things our way, as God has shown with Cain and Abel. Abel brought the proper offering, while Cain chose to bring fruit. The fruit was the best, BUT it was not what God had asked for. God made the Sabbath day holy, and therefore we should keep.

Another example of how disobeying God’s way of doing things is dangerous: Leviticus 10: 1-2. The sons of Aaron, Nadab and Abihu died because they presented to the Lord a strange fire that he did not command them to.

Also, in the book of Revelations, it says that we should pray that we do not have to flee during winter time, or Sabbath day. Why does he keep mentioning it, if we are not commanded to keep it anymore?

I do not say these things as if to judge. I myself am guilty of not keeping the Sabbath and I have to pray earnestly for forgiveness.

Jen
Jen
August 31, 2017 9:00 pm
Reply to  Tony

Dang you’re prideful lol

Jay
Jay
June 30, 2017 12:43 pm
Reply to  ES

God also made the Temple of Solomon Holy…………..

How did that work out?

How did Adam honor his mother?

If you wanna worship on Saturday go ahead. But leave Christians who go to church on Sundays alone. You turn the Gospel of Christ into a works salvation when you start condemning people to hell for what day they go to church on. There is flat out not one single command in the New Testament after Christ’s crucifixion to observe the Sabbath. I’m not going to play games where we twist the word “commandment” into the 10. Paul writes about murder, stealing, homosexuality and the lot by their specific names and NEVER names the Sabbath specifically unless its in a unflattering manner.

Jessica
Jessica
May 22, 2015 3:46 pm

From the text you pointed out in Colossians, I am guessing I can also practice any religious festival pertaining to any religion?

Danielle Johnson
Danielle Johnson
July 25, 2015 12:18 am

The Sabbath was and is to rest from physical work so one can focus on become closer to God Spiritually.

Danielle Johnson
Danielle Johnson
July 25, 2015 12:21 am

And the Sabbath is specifically listed as the seventh day many times in the Bible.

sylvia
sylvia
October 14, 2015 3:21 pm

Gen 12 the promise was given to Abram. We know he followed God’s commandments, ordinance and statutes. Gen. 26:5 (given before Mt. Sinai even). In Gen. 15 Abram wanted a guarantee, He gave it to him, walk between the pieces now there is a death penalty attached to breaking it. Exod 19:3 God gives proposal, v. 4 they accept (“I do”) Exod. 19:4-24:11 is the Book of the Covenant. In v. 19:3 He was going to make them a nation of Kings and priests. They broke that Covenant that’s when they were given the Book of the Law. Attention to detail is everything, God wrote the Book of the covenant with his own finger, both sets of tablets. Moses wrote Book fo the Law with his hand. Deut. 10 and 31, respectively. The Book of the Covenant was in the Ark fo the Covenant and the Book of the Law was on the outside of the Ark. The Book of the Law was a witness against them and is what was nailed to the cross in Colossians. The Book of the Covenant is what was written in the First tablets AND in the second set. First set broken, picture of broken first Covenant. They were under the Book fo the Law/tutor/schoolmaster until “*Shiloh come” *Gen 49:10. Now instead of being a nation of kings and priests, they are a nation with priests. God was gonna kill them and start over with Moses until Moses mediated on their behalf. Hebrews and Galatians is very easy to understand once you grasp this. “r if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.” 2 Cor. 3:11. The Book of the Law (the Levitical priesthood) is what was fading away and it was glorious because it kept them from being wiped out under Yahweh’s wrath. That which remains is the Book of the Covenant, those include His dietary laws, Sabbaths (day 7 per scripture, it is a sign FOREVER, scripture say’s forever, without end) and His feasts. If one would just look up the history of where the Christian holidays come from they will find with absolute certainty that they are of pagan origin. Mixing unholy and putting God’s name on it is what broke the Covenant in Exodus 32..the Golden Calf…they called it by His name and were having a feast for Him the next day….just what Christianity is doing today. The second Book of the Covenant, which contained the same thing (Deut. 10 same writings) are put in the ark of the covenant, which is a picture of His Torah/Instructions/law if you must call it that, IN OUR HEARTS Jer. 31:31. The Sabbath was changed to Sun – day by the Catholic Church in honor of the ‘venerable day of the sun” Sun god worship. He gave us such a pretty picture within the scriptures, just in case you don’t want to spend time actually looking up the original words. We sinned, he spared us, shed blood to bring us out of sin (Moses brings them out of Egypt/picture of our Savior). HE then brings them to Mt. Sinai at Shavuot (Pentecost) and gives them a wedding contract/New Covenant/Instructions. The sin, He spares them and gives them a New Covenant, containing the same things because they are from the promises to Abraham in Gen 12 and since He swore by Himself because there was none higher, we can’t break that. We’re not a party to that, Only He is. Yahshua comes and puts the blood on their heart in order to allow us to enter into the New Covenant and follow Him as He has always intended. We are all responsible to study for ourselves, don’t take mans’ word for it or follow religiosity, man’s doctrines, theology written by men….He gave us His word and you don’t require a theological degree to be able to understand it. If you are basing your eternal salvation on it, doesn’t it warrant studying this out.

sylvia
sylvia
October 14, 2015 3:43 pm

The Sabbath, yes, it was a day of rest. The 7th day was set aside, sanctified and made holy. Also, it is a sign between God and Israel forever. New Testament believers have to ask themselves, who was the New Covenant made with? Jer. 31:31 “Behold the days will come when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel (northern tribes, scattered) and the House of Judah (northern tribes, scattered)see Hosea 1, they are scattered and intro to James, to the 12 tribes in the diaspora..). The Sabbath is like wearing our wedding ring, it is an ‘owth’ aleph vav chet Strongs #H226 “a sign, a signal, a distinguishing mark,..” (hmm, a mark.. could the Beast’s ‘mark’ be that of moving God’s holy day to Sunday, that part is just conjecture, but worth consideration since the enemy plagiarizes God’s work) and and comes from root H225 which means “to consent, to agree” to a Covenant perhaps. So the Roman Catholic church moved the Sabbath to Sunday without any scriptural authority, the admit to it, just look it up. It is not just a matter of ‘rest’. Also, Isa. 58:13-14 gives us a little more insight, “If because of the Sabbath, you turn your foot From doing your own pleasure on My holy day,And call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the LORD honorable,And honor it, desisting from your own ways,From seeking your own pleasure And speaking your own word, Then you will take delight in the LORD,And I will make you ride on the heights of the earth;And I will feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father,For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.” All things we need to consider. Blessings to you all and Happy Berean-ing

phillemon Lazarus
phillemon Lazarus
September 29, 2017 3:39 am
Reply to  Tony

i like your comment and i agree with your points.anyway i have a question as i’m begin believer and i’m still observing the bibles verse to know the truth.

my question,as we live now on this earth does God resting?why i’m asking this question is because the purpose of God to create the earth was to make it paradise,by then the earth is no longer paradise because of Adam who disaobey God’s instruction.

my second question is why the bible says the sabbath day is the shadow of things to come?

indeed i believe that keeping sabbath day is not legal restriction for believers because the earth is not yet paradise but is the shadow of things to come when the kingdom of God come on earth when Jesus coming back.

Alexandra
Alexandra
November 1, 2015 4:50 pm

In Matthew 24 when Jesus predicts the end times He says something very interesting : Matthew 24:20 And pray that your flight may not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. (NKJV)
So the Sabbath is still valid because even in the end times when we have to run for our lifes Jesus says pray that it won’t be on the Sabbath.

Brandon Yurk
Brandon Yurk
October 12, 2017 9:33 am
Reply to  Alexandra

Hi Alexandria,

I struggled with this verse myself until I read a book called Discovering the New Covenant, by Greg Taylor. He was an SDA that tried everything to disprove “Sunday worshippers” but in his search to to do so found something completely different in the scriptures.

His stance on the verse you’ve quoted was that it was the ultimate proof that the Sabbath was still binding, until he came across this scripture. Nehemiah 13:19 would show that Nehemiah made a decree to enforce keeping the Sabbath holy by shutting the gates and letting no one in or out until Sabbath was over. This decree was more than likely still in effect at the time of Christ. So, Jesus, in His love for the saints, says this because once Jerusalem is ransacked and destroyed there’d be no escape for them since the gates would be shut and no one allowed to leave or enter. They’d basically be sitting ducks. The first Christians would be stuck in the city and killed along with everyone else because the Jews would still be adhering to Sabbath keeping even if they weren’t. Jesus wanted them to pray that they would have an escape route.

I’m paraphrasing on what he wrote but it was such an eye opener for me and hopefully this helps you see the other possibility on what Jesus was talking about.

If you get the chance I’d encourage you to read this book (which is actually Greg Taylor’s testimony) and work your way through the entirety of it; it’s only 162 pages, but so powerful.

In Christ,
Brandon

Harriet Meaders
Harriet Meaders
January 17, 2016 8:59 am

The belief that Jesus, or Joshua, which was most likely his real name, is based on a virgin birth in Isaiah. However, in the original Hebrew/Aramaic text the word virgin does not appear. There were two words in that language, alma and betula, one meaning virgin and the other young woman. The word in the ORIGINAL text before the Greeks translated it was “young woman” and was referencing the coming of the child of the prophet Isaiah. But it was later changed to make Jesus’ birth a virgin one thus proving he was the Messiah. Many other Old Testament chapters were also changed by the Greek translation . I have read both and have seen the differences.

Misty
Misty
January 19, 2016 9:50 pm

I’m not wanting to discuss my questions in an open forum. Would you consider emailing me please?

Sarah
Sarah
February 23, 2016 3:26 pm

What I’ve come to understand through lots of prayer and studying is that Jesus fulfilling the law didn’t mean that it wasn’t applicable anymore. Instead, it means that Jesus was filling a gap that we simply can’t fill on our own. Without Jesus we can’t be forgiven of our sins. There is no room in the law alone for the fact that we are imperfect creatures and we do make mistakes and we do fall away. With Jesus this missing link is fulfilled and now through Jesus we are able to have access to the Holy Spirit which can guide us and show us HOW to obey the law and give us the DESIRE to obey the law.

As we grow in our walk with God we come to a place where we simply DESIRE to do what pleases Him. We’ve been specifically told in the commandments (and many other places throughout the Bible) that the Sabbath day is a holy day to commune with God and that it is (specifically) the 7th day of the week.

I think of it like this: If my husband has a favorite meal that he absolutely loves and I know he does then I will make this for him, especially if he asks me to. Not because I feel OBLIGATED to, but because I love him and it makes him happy.

So going into the Sabbath I remember that God views the 7th day of the week as something special and we know that to be the case from the creation, not from the 10 commandments. I love God and I know He doesn’t change so nothing has changed as far as that goes. He still views the 7th day of the week as a special and sacred day.

Now, as I’ve started observing the Sabbath I’ve come to understand much more about it. When Jesus came and did certain things on the Sabbath that the Pharisees viewed as dishonoring he was trying to CLARIFY what the Sabbath is really about because the people had gone completely out of left field with it. What He clarified is that the Sabbath is a day in which we are to commune with God (Jesus) and not a day to set specific rules and regulations that you think about more than God. By focusing more on the rules and regulations than you do on God you’re doing the very opposite of what God wants you to do on that day — which is to remove as many distractions as you’re able to from your life on that day in order to focus on God.

What I’ve been lead to by the Holy Spirit in the time I’ve been observing the Sabbath is that this doesn’t mean that if you have to change your kids diaper you’re not observing the Sabbath. What it means is God is giving you THE GIFT of setting all the earthy things aside for ONE DAY, one very special (and specific) day per week. These are the things that don’t matter in eternity, the things that are superficial and the things that we simply don’t NEED to do that day but can put off for another day. It’s a gift because it is SO FREEING to have that day with God. I grow so much in God on the Sabbath day it’s amazing. I can’t attribute it to anything but the fact that that day has been made (and will remain) holy because God said it was so and nothing can change that.

All that being said you can worship and commune with God any (and hopefully every) day of the week! The more the better! But, nothing can remove replace the Sabbath being the 7th day of the week BECAUSE GOD SAID SO and that’s enough for me to continue observing it (and truly treasuring it) every week.

Sarah
Sarah
February 24, 2016 6:39 am

Tony,

Thank you for your reply!

As far as 2 Corinthians 3:7-11 goes you need to really look at the entire chapter before drawing conclusions. I really dove deep into that chapter last night with my husband and prayed about clarity on it. Because here’s the thing, like you said, our conclusions can’t contradict the scripture and scripture can’t contradict scripture. I’m looking at Matthew 5:17-19 and our understanding of 2 Corinthians 3 simply CANNOT contraction that scripture. I know you’re going to say that by fulfilling the law Jesus abolished it, but doesn’t that mean that He’s contracting himself when he says “For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS, one jot and one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” He’s not talking about the fulfillment of the law on the cross, he’s talking about the fulfillment of GOD’S ENTIRE PLAN, meaning to the end of time here on earth.

Knowing that, it simply cannot contradict what Paul is saying in 2 Corinthians. That scripture also can’t contradict what Paul says in Romans 3:28-31 where Paul tells us that yes we are justified by faith, but NO that does not mean the law is made void. So after really diving deep into that piece of scripture it has become clear that it actually is talking about the veil being removed from the law. Here’s what I mean…

The law was basically given before they were told HOW they were able to fulfill the law. They NEEDED to understand in all the time before Jesus that they simply cannot fulfill God’s law without God. Period. Here they are begging for a king, begging for law and order, practically begging to go back to Egypt because it was better in their eyes. And God says, Okay, sure you want law, I’ll give you what I expect of you. You simply can’t do this on your own, but you’re going to try because you’re a rebellious people. lol

So what changed when Jesus died for our sins was that we were first of all covered by God’s grace through our faith in Jesus so that if we should make a mistake and disobey the law we would be forgivven (there was no room in JUST THE LAW for that). We were also finally able to received the Holy Spirit, God’s internal guidance on everything in life, including the law.

So in 2 Corinthians 3 Paul is describing how the law COULD NOT be followed on it’s own. There was a veil over it which the people could not see this (2 Corinthians 3:13-16). So they scrambled around making assumptions on how to obey the law and they were basically running in circles because the law wasn’t made for unbelievers, it was made FOR BELIEVERS IN CHRIST. This is why in 2 Corinthians 3:3 he talks about this law now being written not in stones anymore, but ON OUR HEARTS.

All that being said yes, I believe the law is for us because we are told that God is for not just the Jews but also the Gentiles (Romans 3:29). We are God’s children, we’re adopted into the family! 🙂

But here’s the thing. I don’t believe that anyone is going to hell for not observing the Sabbath. The Bible says if you’re a follower of Christ and are truly saved then you are covered by faith. But these are just things that we do because we know they’re right and God has given us a precious glimpse into what He doesn’t like and I personally am going to try to steer clear of those things. We also now have the natural DESIRE to do these things as the Holy Spirit works on us.

I do think, however, that so many Christians are missing out on something really special by not spending time with Our Heavenly Father on that day. Sunday was actually a Roman Catholic invention that spread down over time to the Protestant side of it. Am I going to do something just because the Pope said it was true? Ha! Have you seen anything that the Pope has been saying lately? Things like Jesus failed on the cross and that it doesn’t matter if you’re Buddhist or whatever because all roads lead to God. Do I want to do something just because someone that says those things said so? Absolutely not, quite the opposite. I want to know what his intentions are in changing the day of worship to Sunday, and frankly I think I’d take God’s Word over his.

But thanks for your reply, it’s much appreciated. I do hope you will at least pray about this. I’m not sure if you already have. But it never hurts to ask God directly. 🙂

Fernie
Fernie
April 19, 2016 7:57 pm
Reply to  Sarah

Was hoping for a reply from Tony :(. This guy has a counterpoint for everything somebody posts about the Sabbath and I love learning! He seems very knowledgeable. But I’m still left confused.

I have started this journey recently, so with the little knowledge that I have, I do agree and feel the same way you feel though. I observe the Sabbath not because it’s a law that MUST be followed but because I know God is pleased with it. By pleasing God, I’m *not* earning my grace or getting any special treatment, but it’s just something extra that I do to honor Him.

Sarah
Sarah
April 19, 2016 9:33 pm
Reply to  Sarah

@Fernie,

Thanks for your reply. It can be confusing when we as the Body of Christ are so torn on these topics. 🙁 But praise God that none of these issues are salvation issues, so long as we have Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I think of the Sabbath as a gift of rest from our weekly grind. God is giving us permission to set aside the work we do each week to focus on Him. I think that’s such a blessing.

I will say though that one thing God has led me to recently concerning all of this is that He is the BEGINNING and the END, right? How symbolic is it that Jesus came to fulfill that in view of our week too? He is the BEGINNING (Sunday, as many consider the Lord’s Day) and the END (Saturday, Sabbath). I think that’s pretty beautiful. One Pastor I met put it in a way that I think is how we all need to look at it: “Saturday is the Sabbath, the day of rest; but Sunday is the Day of Work FOR THE LORD.” I love that!

So as my family grows to learn more I’m starting to see that the best way to observe the Sabbath (for our family, it may be different for others) is at home with our family. We have just started to observe communion together at the start (Friday evenings) which is a wonderful way to remember Jesus is the reason we are all here. Since talking to the pastor I mentioned above we are considering also searching for the right church to attend on Sunday. So we can rest and fellowship with God and each other on Sabbath and then fellowship with others on Sunday. It’s a new idea for us so we’ll see how it goes, but it’s a fresh perspective. I believe God led us to this revelation about Him being the BEGINNING (of the week) and the END as well. We’re still praying on and exploring the idea as of now, but it sounds pretty God-honoring to me. 🙂

If you have any questions, Fernie, I’d be happy to help you with what I can. I know I don’t have the same perspective as Tony, but I’m happy to share what I’ve learned. Our family has only just been observing the Sabbath for less than a year so we are very new to it and still learning how best to honor God and keep it holy. But I’ll do my best to answer any questions. 🙂

Another excellent resource is Michael Lake of Biblical Life TV. He has an amazing way of connecting the Old Testament with the New and showing how God has foreshadowed Jesus from the very beginning, from each prophet and Old Testament apostle to the Biblical feasts and how each of them point to Jesus and how he fulfills them. It’s amazing. We love to watch his sermons on the Sabbath too. The Biblical Feasts series isn’t on Youtube, only on audio.

I hope that helps and may God bless your walk with Him Fernie!

Sarah
Sarah
February 24, 2016 10:54 am

I have to share one more thing that came to me just this morning. Then I’ll stop bugging you about it! lol

I was reading Exodus this morning and came to the part in 39:35 and 40:3, 20 where the ark of the covenant is referred to as the ark of the testimony (KJV). In this the 10 commandments stand apart from the rest of the law because they are placed in a special and holy box to bear testimony of them.

Now the Holy Spirit is referred to as bearing witness for Jesus Christ or bearing the testimony.

The ark of the testimony represents what is now the Holy Spirit within us.

Here’s an analogy of how it works: Let’s say I’m going to a friend’s house for dinner. I make up a list of all the things I don’t like to eat for her to make sure she doesn’t make them. She takes a look at the list but doesn’t really memorize it and she sets it aside. Let’s say that hypothetically green beans are on the list. If I’m not there in the room when she’s making dinner then she could go ahead and make green beans without remembering that I don’t like them. Now, let’s say I get there before she starts making dinner. As she starts dinner I notice she’s pulling out green beans to make so I remind her that I don’t like green beans. She says, “Oh yeah! I forgot” and goes ahead and makes something else. I stop her in her tracks from making something I don’t like because I’m right there with her.

This is what the Holy Spirit does for us. This is why the testimony is written on our hearts (2 Corinthians 3:3), because we have the ACTUAL person to remind us what they like and don’t like and NOT JUST THE LIST.

Back to the analogy: Whether I am in the room with my friend as she makes dinner or just the list I gave her doesn’t change what I like and don’t like. The only thing that changes is that I’m there to REMIND her in person.

Likewise the what God likes and doesn’t like doesn’t change, but now he is right there within us to remind us when we are about to go astray.

Ed Edwards
Ed Edwards
March 4, 2016 3:18 pm
Reply to  Sarah

Greetings Sarah, I like your replies about Sabbath keeping altho I am not fully convinced yet. What do you believe scripture says about hell? Destruction or everlasting torment? What is your interpretation of the mark of the beast and the “rapture”? Thanks, Ed Edwards.

Sarah
Sarah
April 19, 2016 9:10 pm
Reply to  Sarah

@Ed Edwards

That’s a lot of questions to answer in a comment! 🙂 But, to answer as concisely as possible…

I am honestly a bit torn on what to believe about hell as far as it being eternal or not. When I read scripture I see many cases where it talks about things like the body and soul being DESTROYED in hell (Matthew 10:28) and that those who don’t believe will PERISH (John 3:16) which are words I associate with having an end. But then there are verses like Matthew 25:46 where Jesus says there are those who will go into everlasting punishment that does make it sound eternal. Is it possible there are different outcomes for different unbelievers? I really don’t know. It’s a topic I haven’t quite been able to understand entirely and I haven’t been led to anything in particular by the Holy Spirit yet, so I just don’t know.

For the Mark of the Beast that’s one my husband has a few theories on but I don’t personally have too many theories on what exactly it will be. One thing I have noticed about the Mark of the Beast though is that the Bible says that “he [the second beast] causeth ALL, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads.” (Revelation 14:16). This makes it sounds like something we can’t avoid. HOWEVER, we can HAVE VICTORY over it (Revelation 15:2). And I know that we have victory through Our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57). Could this be connected?

When it comes to the rapture I do not see the pre-trib rapture portrayed in the scriptures. A lot of pre-trib believers use 1 Thessalonians 4:17 as really the only verse they can point to “prove” pre-trib. But when you read that in context it’s really just a means of giving comfort to those who have lost loved ones and re-assuring them that they will meet them again one day. There are parables about wheat (believers) and tares (unbelievers) which clearly describe the tares being destroyed first (Matthew 13:30) and then Matthew 24 Jesus describes us going through a tribulation period in the end. I will tell you one thing I’m sure of though. Whether it’s pre-trib, post-trib, post-wrath, God will protect those who are covered in the blood of Jesus, just as He did for Passover, He will do the same for those who are His children. Will it be easy for us? No, but we are covered by the blood of Jesus! Praise God! So, as my husband would say…”pray for pre-trib, but prepare (spiritually in particular) for post-trib”. 🙂

I hope this helps. What are your thoughts, Ed?

Jay
Jay
June 30, 2017 1:43 pm
Reply to  Sarah

1 Thessalonians is clearly not the only verse pre-tribbers can use.

Try Rev 4 which mimics exactly what Paul wrote compounded with the fact that the Church is mentioned all the time before then and never again until Rev 19.

Try accounts like Enoch, Elijah, Moses and Lot where people are removed from death or judgment.

That’s just for starters.

William
William
May 1, 2016 1:33 pm

Interesting post. Allow me to posit my own viewpoint for consideration:

First we need to understand the nature, and timing, of the new covenant. In Hebrews 8:13, we read:

[Heb 8:13 ESV] 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

This verse is frequently used by Christians to assert that the new covenant has come and the old has passed away, including the Torah associated with the old covenant. Oddly enough the word covenant isn’t even in the original greek here—it was added by translators. Beyond that even when the old covenant passes away, it does not mean the Torah will pass away, as we shall see.

Let’s look at the passage from Jeremiah 31:

[Jer 31:31-34 ESV] 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

This passage, unfortunately, completely destroys the argument of Hebrews 8:13. There are three major points to note from the passage:

1. The party to the new covenant is the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is not with gentiles, not with the “church”, not with Christianity!

2. Torah (God’s law or instructions) is still central to the new covenant. The hebrew word behind the english word law in this passage is Torah. In fact, the Torah will be written on our hearts such that we observe it naturally.

3. The conditions for the new covenant are not met, indicating the new covenant is NOT IN EFFECT yet. Note that people will no longer need to be taught to know the Lord, because EVERYONE will know him, from the least to the greatest. This is something that will happen in the messianic age, still to come. In fact, read some of the surrounding context in Jeremiah to see that this is absolutely descriptive of the messianic age.

Thus, simple logic shows us that the quote of Jeremiah in Hebrews 8 was misappropriated. Christians seem to, whether consciously or subconsciously, equate the “new testament” to the new covenant, but that is clearly a mistake. The new covenant is still in the future.

This passage informs us that whether current covenant or new, Torah is vital.

Now, Christians like the author of this blog will also say that Torah wasn’t given to them. That is correct. There is perhaps an argument to be made that non-Jews aren’t bound to observe the Torah. However, if you believe Paul’s writings to have been appropriately included in the Christian canon, then you have to take him at his word when in Romans 11 he describes gentile believers as being wild olive branches grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel. If this is so, what sort of fruit will those grafted in branches produce? Bananas? Nope, the same exact fruit as the native branches. If one is grafted in, one because as much a part of Israel as the native Israelites, and thus should follow Torah as well.

That’s tough for Christians because they don’t seem to love God enough to obey him. (Or have been taught they don’t need to and simply accept that without doing their own research.)

This would include Sabbath, the topic of this article. For the Sabbath is everlasting:

[Exo 31:14-17 ESV] 14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. 16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. 17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'”

Fernie
Fernie
May 1, 2016 10:21 pm
Reply to  William

Thank you for your input! Now I am more confused! Heheh I guess I need to learn more.

Can’t wait for Tony’s input on your comment

Fernie
Fernie
May 1, 2016 10:37 pm
Reply to  William

I still have a question that I hope you can help me understand.

In Exo 31:14-17 ESV that you quoted (and in verse 13), says that the Sabbath to be used as an instruction to be given to Israel and that they should keep from generation to generation. This still is pointing to Israel and not everyone.

So you are saying that we (assuming you are Christian :P), Christians, should follow the Torah (commandments and all the other “613” commands)?

If so, how can we explain these verses?
Colossians 2:16-17
16So don’t let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths.17For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality

Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Romans 3:28
28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Galatians 3:24-25
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Sorry in advance for the pasting of the verses, I’m still trying to learn all of this and I keep verses of “pro” vs “con” for whether we should keep the commandments and commands or not ^^

Hope you can shed some light! Thank you for the time 🙂

William
William
May 2, 2016 9:10 am

One thing I apparently failed to do clearly in my original comment is to point out that Hebrews 8:13 was the conclusion provided by the author after quoting Jeremiah 31:31-34 in Hebrews 8:8-12. Sorry about that but hopefully anyone who actually looked at Hebrews 8:13 saw the quote from Jeremiah just before.

Here’s the bottom line, as far as I am concerned. The Jeremiah prophecy proves that Torah is central to both the old (Sinai) and new (Future) covenants. Thus, if Paul is really teaching that Torah has been abolished, he was simply wrong.

The early followers of Jesus continued worshipping in the synagogue. They were called Nazarenes and/or Ebionites, were simply another sect within Judaism, and many or most of them actually rejected Paul’s writings completely. By the fourth century however, the Roman gentile churches greatly outnumbered them, had abandoned Torah, and were practicing things that had no basis in the teachings of Yeshua. These people determined the Christian canon, and Paul was NOT unanimously included. The way I see it, the HAD to include Paul because he was the only one who could be twisted to justify their current antinomian practices.

As I see it, there are only two possibilities when it comes to Paul, and I believe it is very easy to prove it:

1. He is misunderstood and was NOT teaching against Torah.

2. He was a false apostle and WAS teaching, incorrectly, against Torah.

If we agree that Christianity has its root in Judaism and we accept the “old testament” (I hate that term), then we have to accept the simple truth of Jeremiah 31, that Torah is central to both the old and new covenants. That *should* be enough to prove Paul is either misunderstood or wrong, but it is rarely enough because Christians read their new testament back into the old rather than reading it as a continuation of the old. If you learn the Tanakh first and then let it inform your interpretation of the NT, then you would naturally come to different conclusions.

So, let’s show from the new testament how logically Paul cannot be teaching that Torah has been abolished:

First, consider the definition of sin. What is sin exactly? Here’s a simple definition from the NT:

[1Jo 3:4 ESV] 4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

Sin is lawlessness. Simple, but profound to a Christian who has been taught that the law has been done away with.

Paul himself echoes this in Romans:

[Rom 5:13 ESV] 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.

What he is saying is basically “there is no sin without a law to define it.”

So at this point it should be clear that sin is breaking God’s law (Torah).

Now consider this verse from Romans which is another popular anti-law verse used by Christians:

[Rom 6:14 ESV] 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Christians key in on the “not under law” part to abolish Torah, and yet Paul follows this up with:

[Rom 6:15 ESV] 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Paul says we don’t have a license to sin under grace. If we shouldn’t sin, and sin is braking the law, then obviously this is a mandate to follow the law. Logic allows for no other conclusion here.

In fact, the ONLY author in the entire NT that anyone can interpret as having justified the abolishment of Torah is Paul. (And maybe the author of Hebrews if it wasn’t Paul, but many attribute it to Paul.)

There were 12 apostles who actually walked with Yeshua during his ministry. They all continue to observe Torah and teach others to do so. In acts we have recorded an example of conflict between the Apostles and Paul because rumors were circulating that he was teaching against the law:

[Act 21:18-24 ESV] 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

The believers in Jerusalem were all zealous for the law but were hearing that Paul was teaching against it. They insisted Paul take part in a Nazarite vow in order to dispel the rumors. (Read further and you’ll find that Paul couldn’t even get that right and it was part of the reason for his detention.)

The bottom line is that the entire Tanakh (old testament) is about Torah from Exodus onward. The Israelites accepted it and said they would do what God asked of them. God promised blessings for observance and curses for disobedience, and that set the stage for everything that occurred from there on. Nowhere is there a hint that Torah would ever be abolished, and Jeremiah 31 shows Torah to be a continuing vital component of a future new covenant.

Then Yeshua comes and is perfectly Torah observant, and clearly teaches it to others in Matthew 5:17-20. So you have complete Torah continuity up to and including Yeshua, but Christianity places Paul above Yeshua and says the Torah no longer applies because Yeshua fulfilled it. Ask yourself, if fulfillment of something means it no longer applies, what is the difference between that an abolishment? Nothing! Yeshua said he wasn’t coming to abolish the law and prophets, and yet that is what Christianity has done!

Think about it in modern legal terms. Whether a law is overturned (abolished) or expires (fulfilled and no longer applies), what is the difference? The law no longer needs to be followed, and there is no consequence to not following it. There is no difference.

Yeshua says clearly in Matthew 5:17-20 that the law and prophets will remain unmolested until heaven and earth pass away and ALL (meaning all prophecy, much of which is still to come) if completed. He then follows that up by stating that anyone who breaks the least of the commandments and teaches others to do so will be least in the kingdom of heaven. There is no getting around the clear meaning of his words.

Once you wrap your head around all of this, and believe me it was excruciatingly painful and took a long time for me to accept, then you are left with the question of what to do about it. I’ll be honest and admit that I haven’t quite figured that all out yet. There are those who say Torah was given only to Israel, and that gentiles who want to follow the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can observe the instructions given by God to mankind in the scriptures before Sinai. Personally this does not resonate with me, but it is logical so I haven’t ruled it out. I am personally drawn to learning to observe Torah.

Your response contained the phrase “assuming you are a Christian”. At this point I would no longer claim that label for myself, primarily because I believe 1) Christianity to be far from the truth, and 2) Yeshua did not come to establish a new religion. I don’t know what to call myself at this point, but I actually worship in an orthodox synagogue on Shabbat for the time being (been attending for only a couple months). Unfortunately I learned the truth, and it carried me right out of church, through hebrew roots/messianic judaism for a bit until I realized that wasn’t the answer either, and now the synagogue is sort of my only option 🙂

That probably seems radical and bizarre to a Christian, but given enough time I could explain my journey and how it has taken me there. Feel free to contact me offline at wtl at outlook dot com.

Sarah
Sarah
May 2, 2016 10:12 am
Reply to  William

I just have to follow up here, especially for Fernie, because while William has a lot of wisdom here that is very helpful, I think there’s some things that are way off base.

First of all, to abandon Jesus in order to follow Torah is exactly the opposite of what you should do. In no way CAN you fulfill Torah without Jesus. He (and with guidance of the Holy Spirit that Jesus has sent to us) gives us the strength and discernment to be able to know right from wrong. Following Torah is good, but we simply CANNOT do it without Jesus. That was what Jesus meant by saying he came to fulfill the law. We needed something more than ourselves to be able to follow God’s law, and that something was Jesus and only Jesus.

Also keep in mind that many of those laws in Torah had to do with preparation of their sacrifices, which is fulfilled when Jesus became our Perfect sacrifice. The laws which Aaron and his line had to perform to prepare the offerings obviously can’t be performed now since we don’t make physical sacrifices anymore because: 1) Jesus became ALL OF our atonement offerings and 2) God was very clear that there was ONE PLACE where these offerings could be made and that place no longer exists.

Following God’s law does not provide salvation, only Jesus can do that. But following God’s law does enable us to be closer to God because sin draws us away from God because He is so holy and perfect, and sin was defined in the Torah.

Also I firmly believe that Paul is greatly misinterpreted, NOT a false prophet. The Bible we have today (I use KJV) is inspired by God entirely but it cannot be understood properly if we look for what we want in it, take snippets that fit our needs, and in turn contradict other portions. Our understanding with the New Testament has to fit with what God ordained in the Old (Old not meaning done away, but meaning of-Old or been around a long time). So when we are trying to find the truth, remember that the pieces MUST FIT TOGETHER. It’s a life-long journey, which is how God designed it — so we would be continually seeking Him out. It wasn’t to confuse us, but to draw us nearer to Him. Not only that, but false teachers are out there whose intent IS to confuse us. We need the Holy Spirit to discern that, and like I said above we can only have the Holy Spirit through Jesus.

And yes, we ARE a part of Israel because we are grafted on to the tree of Israel (Romans 11:16-21). When branches from a fruit tree are grafted onto another tree, are they still two trees? No. They are ONE tree.

The term Christian simply means follower of Christ and is not a bad term to use, it’s even used in the Bible; although it is used quite loosely now, that doesn’t mean it can be taken from you. Those who are grafted onto the tree the only way they can be, through Christ (Christians) are now apart of Israel, and therefore are apart of the covenant with God. You will also notice in the Romans passage above that God does not spare even the native branches (those who are born by blood into Israel) when they do not follow Him (Christ), which means those who do not follow Christ are no longer apart of SPIRITUAL Israel (God’s chosen people). To be clear, those who are born into Israel and DO follow Christ are still apart of God’s chosen people, of course. Things look differently now that Jesus has fulfilled the sacrifice as our Perfect Lamb. But that needed to happen because sin is so prevalent, there weren’t enough ordinary lambs in the world (and enough time to sacrifice them) to atone for all the sin in it.

I hope that helps a little more. I know it’s not an easy thing to accept, since so many have been led astray with this doctrine, and now those who are Christian and chose to follow the law are in the minority. But you are doing exactly what God wants you to do, following the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not just accepting something you’re told. So really and truly, while talking to other Christians is important, talking to God about it is the most important thing you can do when it comes to these convictions you feel.

William
William
May 2, 2016 10:23 am

I composed my last comment rather hastily, and apologize for the typos! I also feel that perhaps I did not explore one of the questions as much as I should have, that being the question of whether gentile believers need to observe Torah.

Christianity by and large says nobody needs to follow Torah, even Jews, because Jesus fulfilled it and put it to rest. I am firmly opposed to this idea based on Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 5:17-20, and many other passages where Yeshua teaches and demonstrates the need for Torah. Matthew 7:23 for example is a good one that I haven’t yet mentioned, or the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a really good example (I think that’s in Luke 16).

However, whether gentiles are obligated to Torah is a question I haven’t yet answered for myself. I personally am drawn to Torah. After spending 40 years as a Christian, confused by the tangled mess of Christian theology, I finally got off my lazy rear and started really seeking the truth, and it has led me to places I never imagined I would go. As a result, my love for God has been strengthened immensely, and I am seeking to know exactly what He would have me do.

I find this passage in Isaiah particularly interesting:

[Isa 56:1-8 ESV] 1 Thus says the LORD: “Keep justice, and do righteousness, for soon my salvation will come, and my righteousness be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast, who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.” 3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the LORD say, “The LORD will surely separate me from his people”; and let not the eunuch say, “Behold, I am a dry tree.” 4 For thus says the LORD: “To the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, who choose the things that please me and hold fast my covenant, 5 I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off. 6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant– 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.” 8 The Lord GOD, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, declares, “I will gather yet others to him besides those already gathered.”

The “foreigner” in this context refers to non-Israelites. Isaiah speaks of Non-Israelites who seek to know God, who are afraid they have been separated from God because they are not part of His people, being assured they have a place amongst His people that SURPASSES that of the native born: “I will give in my house and within my walls a monument and a name better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting name that shall not be cut off.”

Further, we must consider that the ten tribes of the Northern Kingdom who were exiled to Assyria never returned to the land. God promised to make Abraham into many nations, and those ten tribes migrated throughout the world. I do not subscribe to the typical two house theology of the hebrew roots movement, but there is no denying the fact that there are people in the world with Israelite heritage that aren’t aware of it. Who is to say whether a gentile today is truly a gentile?

For these reasons I am drawn to full Torah observance, because my love and devotion to my Creator encourages me to be obedient to Him to the greatest extent possible. Hope that helps!

Fernie
Fernie
May 2, 2016 9:33 pm
Reply to  William

William, you know… When I read Jeremiah 31:31 that you quoted, I understood that it was describing exactly the Holy Spirit.

I started watching a video on YouTube about Jesus in the Old Testament, and this Israelite said the same thing that I thought! https://youtu.be/PVItBigi7xs?t=1995

Doesn’t the last part of verse 33 rings a bell?
“I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.”

Who are the neighbors and brothers of Judah and Israel?
“And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest”
Don’t you think it’s all of us, brothers of the same Father? From the least of them to the greatest.

Also the last sentence of verse 34,
“I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
Doesn’t that sound like Jesus to you?

At this moment I can’t see how this excerpt did not come to fruition when Jesus died for our sins and gave us the Holy Spirit.

What are your thoughts?

William
William
May 2, 2016 10:26 am

Sarah I have nowhere advocated abandoning Yeshua! It is my belief that you can believe in Yeshua as messiah, and still be acceptable in the synagogue, as long as you don’t elevate Yeshua to the place of YHWH.

I think you have made an assumption that going to synagogue means I have abandoned Yeshua.

Sarah
Sarah
May 2, 2016 10:43 am
Reply to  William

William,

I apologize if I misinterpreted your comment. I think I gathered that from your comment on not considering yourself a Christian but rather attending an Orthodox synagogue, who do not teach that Jesus is the Messiah. I just think there’s a danger with going to a non-Messianic synagogue because you start veering more towards the law being more important than Jesus. Do you know what I mean, or am I completely off base?

My family is having a hard time finding a Sabbath and Torah keeping congregation as well and so I completely sympathize with that. We just recently found a Messianic congregation we are going to try next Sabbath so I can definitely understanding being led in that route. But this particular congregation we found doesn’t seem to believe (according to their website) that the Gentiles have been grafted on to the tree of Israel through Christ, which I wholeheartedly do. So it’s still not just the right fit for us. :- But it might be better.

My husband and I are also starting to wonder if God is driving more of us in these (what appear to be) last days who have been led to this truth to planting churches/congregations that won’t be afraid to teach the truth. What do you think? There’s so few out there but I’m seeing more and more people waking up and craving the truth rather than just having their ears tickled.

Thanks for understanding, sorry for misunderstanding your comment. I’m glad that i misunderstood you though and that wasn’t what you meant. 🙂

Sarah
Sarah
May 2, 2016 10:52 am
Reply to  William

I’m sorry, I also missed your comment on not elevating Yeshua to the place of YHWH. Do you not believe in the Trinity? Or do you believe that YHWH is the Father rather than the name for God as all three persons of the Trinity?

I understand YHWH to be One God but presenting Himself in three persons as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Kind of how I am one person but have a Spirit, Soul, and Body. Is that how you see it too, or no?

William
William
May 2, 2016 11:55 am

Sarah:

I feel like my response will be very lengthy. I almost hate to post it here as we’re veering off-topic. But, since at least one other person (Fernie) is following the discussion, I feel anyone who might be observing should benefit from it. I almost wonder if we should somehow take it off site. I sort of feel it might be disrespectful of this blog’s ownership to hijack his article for this discussion, but then we ARE discussing things that stem from our viewpoint on the original topic of the article, which we see much differently than the blog author.

I’ll start composing a response offline and see what you and Fernie think about continuing here. Anyone else lurking feel free to reply as well.

What I will say for now is this–I think it’s fantastic that so many people seem to be waking up to Torah. I kick myself every day for taking so long. I first got my glimpse into Christian error 30 years ago, when I dug into the origins of Christian holidays and lack of Sabbath observance. I unfortunately did not follow through and continue seeking the whole truth, and spent another 30 years drifting through Christianity knowing I wasn’t quite in the right place. I hate that I took so long to really dig, but am thankful that I eventually have.

My understanding today is much different than it was when I started my current journey a couple years ago. I am nobody, and completely underserving of any sort of attention from God, but yet I feel as though he has distinctly led me in a very orderly path, confronting me with truths I was able to handle when I was able to handle them. There are things I have come to believe today that I would not have been able to handle in the early stages of my journey. That makes me somewhat hesitant in a way to start throwing out ideas that I remember I wouldn’t have been able to accept without taking the long journey through each new truth. But then I’m also not one to hide something just because I think it’s controversial. I would just ask that you be sensitive to the fact that the journey to truth can be a gradual one, with one truth building on another in a progressive fashion. I might say something you can’t accept right now, but may come to later. That has happened to me countless times along the way.

When I talk about my journey with others, I start with the definition of sin. It was that simple truth that allowed me, after months of sleepless nights wrestling with Torah vs. Paul, to accept that lawless Christianity is far removed from the truth. For a long time I was obsessed with coming to grips with exactly what Paul meant–so much of what he wrote seems clearly anti-law that I felt it would take years for me to be able to come to terms with it all. I literally woke up in the middle of the night one night with an epiphany–I had already been over scripture which easily proved that Paul couldn’t be teaching the abolishment of Torah, (or if he was he was wrong), and suddenly I realized I didn’t really need to figure Paul out after all. From there each step forward has come in its own time. It’s really been very strange.

I commend you and your husband for being like me and seeking the truth. What I have constantly told myself is that I have to follow the truth wherever it leads, and I must avoid cementing my mind solidly on any particular aspect of my understanding prematurely, and even when I’ve pretty much proven something solidly to myself, I remind myself that if someone smarter than me comes along and disproves me, I have to be open to being wrong and reforming my understanding.

So, as I compose some thoughts offline, let me at least get you thinking with this:

I have discussed above Jeremiah’s prophecy of the new covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). I think the passage clearly indicates that conditions have not been met for the new covenant to be in effect. Clearly the passage describes a future state where everyone knows God, from the least to the greatest, and nobody needs anyone to instruct him on how to know God. This obviously has not happened. (I do think that some of the writers in the NT believed that it was imminent, but here we are nearly 2,000 year later and obviously this new covenant is still in the future.) When the Messiah rules from Jerusalem and the entire world is forced to acknowledge God, is when I believe the new covenant will arrive, and when we will obey God completely and naturally. (How else will the universal peace of that future time be possible?)

That leaves the Sinai covenant still in place between God and Israel. If so, the same conditions still apply today as did some 3300+ years ago when it was accepted, and no new requirements have been or can be introduced. How can one say that a Jew following his covenant with God is condemned without faith in Yeshua? Where in Torah is the requirement for a Jew to have faith in a/the messiah for one to be righteous before God?

Sarah
Sarah
May 2, 2016 2:27 pm
Reply to  William

First to address Paul. I do not believe what he says is anti-law, but rather it is how people have interpreted it because it’s what they want to hear. I don’t know if you’ve heard of him, but Michael Lake has been given a real gift for research and connecting the dots between the Old and New Testaments. You should check out a few of his sermons; in particular his Eating God’s Way book/DVD talks a lot about the scripture that supposedly contradicts the law. I think it’s very helpful. It’s mainly about clean vs unclean, but it’s also helpful for a lot of the scripture that can sound contradictory. He also dives deep into WHO Paul was talking to in context and it helps to gain a better understanding of what he meant by various things he said.

The one thing I think did happen with Paul and the other apostles in the New Testament is that they elevated LOVING GOD (Jesus being apart of that Trinity based on verses such as John 10:30 and 1 John 5:7) above following the law. As we grow in our walks it’s been my experience that wanting to follow the law seems like a natural progression the more you love God. Even those Christians who don’t believe the law is still valid typically know right from wrong based on God’s law (even if they won’t admit it).

As far as Jeremiah 31:31-34 I will have to pray and meditate on it more. I can see how it sounds like future-tense in verse 34. However, I do believe that the law has been written on our hearts when we have the Holy Spirit (Romans 2:15). Is it possible that this new covenant could happen in phases? Perhaps verse 33 is the first phase where we are now the temple of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19), and phase 2 happens in verse 34 where we are in New Jerusalem? Just a theory.

You might say that it can’t be written on our hearts yet if so many people don’t appear to be drawn to observing the law. But more and more people every day are feeling that conviction and just because some people choose to IGNORE it, doesn’t mean it’s not there (God gave us free will and I believe we always will have that). For many years I always felt this stirring in my heart, wondering why the law wasn’t followed anymore, in particular the Sabbath on the surface, since I was more exposed to the 10 commandments than the rest of the Torah. Just because people don’t obey what their hearts tell them, doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Now, for the topic of being condemned without faith in the Messiah (Jesus). First, the Torah isn’t the only Word of God. While I do agree that the law isn’t abolished and it is important, you have to look at more than just the Torah, you have to look at His Word as a whole for the answers. I do believe you do that, but I’m just saying because of your asking “Where in Torah is the requirement for a Jew to have faith in a/the messiah for one to be righteous before God?” Even those Jews who do not believe in Jesus have the Tanakh as a guide, not just Torah.

Here are a few verses in only the Old Testament which I believe point to it being a requirement to have faith in Messiah (Jesus). I won’t quote the whole verses, just point to them and why I believe they’re important:
– Isaiah 9:6 – Tells us that this Son that is given IS The Mighty God and The Everlasting Father
– Psalm 2:12 – Tells us if we don’t “Kiss” the Son that we will perish.
– Psalm 41:9, Psalm 22:14-17, Zechariah 12:10 – Examples of the prophecies sounding First Person, as if God himself is this Messiah.

Now…if God is the Messiah, the King, the Everlasting Father, how can that NOT condemn those who don’t believe in Him? Those who don’t believe in this Messiah that the Old Testament speaks of, also don’t believe in the one true God because this Messiah would be God essentially sending HIMSELF to save us from ourselves. No one else would do.

Not only that, but in the Torah it does command that it’s necessary to atone for your sins and transgressions with specific sacrifices. Without these sacrifices you were condemned to not go near the temple (or near to God). In some cases, you were even cut off from Israel altogether. Is this not a shadow of what was to come with those who reject salvation through the Messiah? Those whose sins are not forgiven simply CANNOT be close to the Almighty and Holy God. Since the temple was destroyed there is no ordained place for this to happen. I don’t believe this is any coincidence of course, since the only sacrifice God will accept has already been brought to the altar.

Thanks for hearing me out and I do thank you for sharing your views as well. And yes, I also apologize to Tony for veering off topic here on his page. Not sure where else to continue the conversation though! lol

William
William
May 3, 2016 2:50 pm
Reply to  William

Sarah:

Tony has seen our discussion! If he’s cool with the ongoing discussion here on his article, as it seems, I’ll keep it here.

The new covenant is said to NOT be like the one made at Sinai which Israel broke. I believe this indicates perfect Torah obedience is the hallmark of the new covenant. If the Torah is written in our innermost parts we shall live it perfectly. If the holy spirit writes the Torah on our hearts today, why is Christianity such a fractured mess of differing doctrines and virtually NO acknowledgement or regard for Torah. There is most definitely more breaking of Torah in Christianity than observance. No, during the new covenant ALL will know him, from the least to the greatest, and naturally be perfectly obedient. I don’t think it can be a gradual thing. I do, however, believe that people awakening to Torah is an indication of progress toward the eventual new covenant. Whether it is near or still far off I don’t know.

So if the Sinai covenant still stands, nothing has substantially changed relative to how Israel should live or have a relationship with God. Further, they do have a solid belief in the Messiah. They just don’t acknowledge that Jesus was that Messiah. Christians who do believe Jesus is Messiah base that partly on the expectation that he will return to set up the messianic kingdom. It’s not a belief in a Messiah who has accomplished all of the messianic prophecies, but a belief that he WILL at some point do so. Jews have that same expectation, they just largely aren’t convinced it will be Jesus. Part of that is the abominations the church has perpetrated under his name. If Jesus returns today and fulfills those messianic kingdom expectations, what observant Jew on earth will refuse to accept him then?

And yet if you believe that there is a requirement to have faith in Messiah in order to be redeemable, the Messiah who you have named, even though he hasn’t fulfilled all of the messianic requirements, then you make practically all of Israel to be doomed. In fact, you have to believe that there was a day in 30 a.d. where a Jew who loved his God and obeyed him to his fullest ability woke up that morning with a place in the world to come, but went to bed that night damned to hell, without ever changing a thing about his faith.

Regarding the indications of required faith in Messiah in the Tanakh you have proposed, let’s look at those:

[Isa 9:6-7 ESV] 6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

The first thing I would draw your attention to is verse 7. The accomplishments of this mentioned individual is he will rule and establish peace, on the throne of David and over David’s kingdom, and this kingdom will be everlasting. Regardless of what you understand verse 6 to mean, Jesus has not yet fulfilled the expectations provided along with it. So if this is a prooftext, to someone who is a member of the community which has been Torah observant for millennia now it is a prooftext against Jesus as Messiah (for now at least.)

Beyond this, there are other problems with the Christian interpretation of Isaiah 9:6. For one, assuming that the naming indicated is proof that the Messiah is God is problematic. Hebrew names are significant. Elihu for example is a Hebrew name meaning “My God is He”. Does that make all people in scripture with this name Deity? Nope.

If you really want to get in depth in this text, look at the Strong’s data for the word “el” which is here translated as God. It is a shortened version of the word “ayil” meaning ram, pillar, door post, jambs, pilaster, strong man, leader, chief, mighty tree or terebinth. Strong’s gives the definition of “el” as “strength; as adjective, mighty; especially the Almighty (but used also of any deity):—God (god), × goodly, × great, idol, might(-y one), power, strong. Compare names in ‘-el.’” Further, throughout scripture the term “god” is applied to men of strength or authority. It is not a term exclusively used of the one true YHWH.

[Psa 2:12 ESV] 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

This is the last version of Psalm 2. It doesn’t specifically mention belief, just a vague kiss the son lest he be angry. I don’t see any particular faith or belief implied here either explicitly or implicitly.

Further, in Psalm 2 we have the same problem of expectation of accomplishment, for we see:

[Psa 2:7-9 ESV] 7 I will tell of the decree: The LORD said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you. 8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Here again, Jesus has not yet fulfilled these expectations.

[Psa 41:9 ESV] 9 Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.

I don’t get the messianic implication in the above verse at all.

Psalm 22:16 doesn’t actually say anything about pierced hands and feet. The key hebrew word in the verse is Kaari (like a lion). I believe there is one fragment (and just a small partial fragment), where this word looks like it could read Kaaru rather than Kaari. That fragment is used to justify changing “like a lion” to “pierced”. However, there are two problems: 1) The hebrew word they want it to be is actually Karu, not Kaaru, and 2) Karu means to dig or excavate, and there are other words much better suited to denote pierced.

Zechariah 12:10 has some issues as well.

[Zec 12:9 ESV] 9 And on that day I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

The preceding verse and others before it indicate the future battle before the messianic era. Armageddon if you will.

So basically in these verses you see as potentially requiring faith in the Messiah, (which personally I don’t see), you also see conditions attached that haven’t been met.

Can you see how to the unbiased mind the Jewish position might look a bit more thoughtful than the Christian one? 1) They absolutely do have faith that a Messiah will redeem them, but 2) Jesus hasn’t yet fulfilled the expectations attached to this Messiah so they can’t name him as said Messiah (yet.)

Yet Christianity condemns them to hell for this.

William
William
May 3, 2016 3:17 pm
Reply to  William

Tony:

In response to Sarah you quote Paul. Paul is the ONLY NT writer who can be interpreted to say the law has expired, or no longer applies, or any number of similar ideas that all effectively abolish the law as Jesus said he was NOT doing.

Yet going back to Jeremiah 31 and the promise of a new covenant, which has been quoted probably more than once by me here already, we see that said new covenant is still Torah centric, and that it is not yet in effect (it’s still future.)

Sin is lawlessness (1 John 3:4). If the law no longer applies, there is no more sin. The 10 commandments don’t apply to us any longer. All we need is faith in Jesus and it really doesn’t matter what our lives look like.

This runs contrary to the entire revelation of God to mankind when you read the bible from front to back. The OT is all about Torah from Sinai forward, and the blessings for obedience, curses for disobedience, and the pleadings of the prophets for the people to hold up their end of the covenant. Then comes Jesus who specifically says he isn’t here to abolish the law, and that anyone breaking the least commandment or teaching others to do so will be least in the kingdom of heaven. The apostles have problems with Paul when they hear rumors that he is teaching against the law.

As I’ve said over and over again, not just hear but anywhere I discuss this, either Paul is misunderstood to be teaching the law no longer applies, or he’s simply a false teacher. For if sin is lawlessness, and yet Paul tells us grace doesn’t give us a license to sin (Rom 6:15), then he is most certainly upholding the law’s ongoing applicability. When he later says the law is a curse, or a schoolmaster we no longer need, he’s either dead wrong or misunderstood. I find it a bit hard to misunderstand some of those assertions he makes, but they cannot stand in light of the entire rest of the Canon which takes the opposite view.

Psalm 119 is a beautiful tribute to the Torah and includes refrains such as:

[Psa 119:151-152, 160 ESV] 151 But you are near, O LORD, and all your commandments are true. 152 Long have I known from your testimonies that you have founded them forever. … 160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

You may want to argue, as many do, that Paul is speaking to gentiles who aren’t bound to Torah. It is true that Torah was given specifically to the descendants of Jacob, and not to anyone else. However, there are real problems with this including:

1. If Paul is speaking exclusively to gentiles, the law NEVER applied to them to begin with. There is no need to explain that it was a schoolmaster that is no longer needed, because it was never needed in the first place. There is no curse from the law on the gentile, because the gentile was never subject to the law. It makes absolutely no sense for Paul to do away with a law that never applied to start with.

2. Paul does away with any sort of jew/gentile distinction in Romans 11. The wild olive branches grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel are not going to bear different fruit than the original branches. If they are one with Israel, they are bound to the same covenant as Israel. See also Galations 3:28 where he again abolishes any distinction. Thus he is abolishing the law, if that is what he is doing, for all.

3. There are passages such as Isaiah 56 that clearly show how God accepts gentiles into his covenant, because they follow his commandments.

William
William
May 3, 2016 5:33 pm
Reply to  William

Tony:

Let’s deal with one thing at a time. First, you say the Sinai covenant no longer stands. Please explain how the context of Jeremiah 31:31-34 allows for this to be the case.

Even the writer of Hebrews, in 8:13 says “And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.” as if it hasn’t vanished yet, but soon will. I believe the writer was fully expectant to see the return of Jesus and the institution of the messianic age which is a condition of the Jeremiah 31 passage he quotes immediate beforehand.

And regardless, Jeremiah 31 clearly shows Torah is central to both the old and new covenants. In other words, Hebrews 8:13 doesn’t say Torah is passing away, but that the old covenant is. The new covenant is ever bit as Torah-centric per Jeremiah 31 as is the old. (Not to mention it is made with the two kingdoms of Israel, and NOT with gentiles or the church.)

William
William
May 3, 2016 5:53 pm
Reply to  William

I start with Jeremiah 31 because it’s the promise of the new covenant, and it very clearly denotes that Torah is still central to said new covenant, and that there are conditions associated with it which haven’t been met.

You want to start with Paul, but if Christianity is founded in a continuing revelation of God’s plan that began with the covenant at Sinai, then Jeremiah 31 is crucial and informs us about the new covenant. This new covenant comes well before Paul, and thus Paul cannot contradict it without being wrong.

We can talk about Paul but you need to deal with Jeremiah which precedes Paul. I find Jeremiah very easy to understand. Why should we dive right into Paul without understanding the initial promise of the new covenant?

Evelyn
Evelyn
February 20, 2021 2:54 pm
Reply to  William

I agree 100%
If we cannot understand Jeremiah, why do we jump to Paul?
Have a blessed Sabbath

William
William
May 4, 2016 9:31 am
Reply to  William

Tony:

Okay, lots of stuff to address here, so this will probably take some time to compose, and will be long.

To start with, let me start with this statement from your response:

——
>> This new covenant comes well before Paul, and thus Paul cannot contradict it without being wrong.

1) Which is it? Has the new covenant arrived, or not?
——

The above was simply a typo. Unfortunately I am not immune to them. My statement was meant to communicate this:

This new covenant PROMISE (Jer 31:31-34) comes well before Paul, and thus Paul cannot contradict it without being wrong.

I was not saying the covenant arrived before Paul, rather the promise. Thus Paul has to build on this foundation along with everything and everyone else, rather than contradict it.

Imagine you’ve never read the Bible, so you sit down to do so. You get to Exodus and you read of the Sinai covenant. You understand that the covenant was given to a specific people, and that it contained God’s instructions for living a righteous life.

So then, you continue reading, discovering various words of wisdom and song, some of it prophetic. You discover a history of God’s chosen people alternately describing their prosperity in the promised land while they upheld their covenant with God, and their exile and punishment when they did not. You discover the prophets who continually exhort the people to return to obedience, along with many prophecies of a messianic kingdom to come during which there will be universal peace, restoration of Israel to the promised land forever, universal knowledge of God, etc.

So then you come to Jeremiah, and in chapter 31 you encounter yet another prophecy of this coming kingdom. Along with it is a promise of a new and better covenant, one in which God’s instructions (Torah) are written on our hearts. The universal peace of the messianic kingdom is the outcome of perfect obedience to God. This new covenant is NOT LIKE the old one which Israel broke, because it will be unbroken. Nobody will need to be taught to know God, because everyone from the least to the greatest will know Him, because he will be present in the rebuilt temple, and his messiah from the live of David will rule his kingdom.

This passage is not at all difficult to understand if you read the scriptures chronologically. It is very clear when this new covenant comes, and that date is still in the future.

So then we read on, and Jesus enters the picture. He says things like:

[Mat 5:17-20 ESV] 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

This is in perfect harmony with everything encountered chronologically in the Bible so far. Everything so far has been about Torah. The clear meaning of the above passage is that Torah is still in effect. Break the least commandment and teach others to do likewise, and you are the least in the kingdom of Heaven. The Torah will be unmolested until ALL is accomplished. The messianic mission has not been accomplished, for there is plenty of prophecy that remains yet to be fulfilled.

There is simply no reason for the reader who hasn’t yet encountered Paul to twist the word fulfill into something that literally does not fit the context of this passage, for the definition you propose for fulfill is effectively the same as abolishment, which Jesus clearly states he was not doing. In legal terms, whether a law is overturned (abolished), or expires (no longer applies), the end result is exactly the same: there is no more need to obey, nor consequence for disobedience.

The context, which includes the exhortation to avoid breaking the least commandment or teaching others to do so, doesn’t allow for your definition of fulfill. The proper definition of fulfill which fits in this context is:

“to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.” (Dictionary.com definition #2)

We can see this echoed in many other of Jesus’ words, such as:

[Mat 7:21-23 ESV] 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Okay, so at this point, with a chronological reading, everything is in beautiful harmony, and is crystal clear. The expectation of obedience to God’s law could not be more obvious.

Let’s talk about the jew/gentile distinction for a moment. First of all, despite the fact that Israel is specifically the descendants of Jacob, there have always been people who are part of Israel who are not related by blood. There was a mixed multitude who came out of Egypt. They were not all native Israelites. Torah specifically states more than once that the same law applies to the native born and the stranger/foreigner among them. Isaiah 56 clearly discusses non-Israelites receiving the same promises for obedience. There is a distinction between God’s people and the nations, but God’s people are not all direct descendants of Jacob.

Further, Paul himself obliterates the jew/gentile distinction with the olive tree illustration in Romans 11 as well as in Galations 3:

[Gal 3:28 ESV] 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So Paul is effectively teaching that we are all one, whether native jew or not, and thus whatever standard there is applies to everyone. Thus, if he is truly teaching the law is done away with, and he is actually correct, then the law is done away with for everyone.

But if he is in fact teaching against the law, it flies in the face of everything I have read so far chronologically. And in a big way! Not just some minor sort of conflict, but a complete 180 degree departure from everything that has preceded him.

A reasonable person would at this stage question Paul, not embrace him and then try to re-evaluate everything he has already discovered in God’s Word in light of these drastic changes.

Suppose Jesus, a devout Jew, perfectly Torah observant, born into the community of God’s people who had been living for some 1300+ years under their covenant with God (at times righteously and other times not so much), was, as you assert, come to do away with the law. You’re talking about a major sea change for the Jews. I mean for over a millennia they’ve been living Torah, and now comes a Jew, a teacher, to basically overturn their way of life and replace it with a new faith-only lifestyle. How does he ease them into this? He tells them to obey even the least of the commandments! Yep, that sounds like the most logical way to teach of the impending momentous change that will free his people from this 1300+ year old curse. (I say curse sarcastically because Psalm 119, the longest book in the Bible, is nothing but one long song singing the praises of Torah. It obviously was not considered a curse.)

I’ve had people try to tell me that in Matthew 5 he was teaching Torah observance because it still applied, until his death and resurrection. Okay, so not only was he focusing his teaching on Torah observance within maybe a year or two of it passing away, but then during the 40 days he spent with his disciples after his resurrection, where exactly is his teaching them to stop living under the curse of the law? Did he forget? Perhaps he did, so he had to convert Paul so he could go back and rectify his critical omission?

So you see, while you may assert that you do not start with Paul, you absolutely do. He is the one and only writer who can be interpreted to be teaching against the law.

We have historical attestation that many of the early followers of Jesus rejected Paul:

“Those who are called Ebionites agree that the world was made by God; but their opinions with respect to the Lord are similar to those of Cerinthus and Carpocrates. They use the Gospel according to Matthew only, and repudiate the Apostle Paul, maintaining that he was an apostate from the law. As to the prophetical writings, they endeavor to expound them in a somewhat singular manner: they practice circumcision, persevere in the observance of those customs which are enjoined by the law, and are so Judaic in their style of life, that they even adore Jerusalem as if it were the house of God.” (Irenaeus, about 180 A.D. in Against Heresies 1.26.)

I was honestly a bit taken aback that you presented Revelation 2:2 as a defense of Paul. When I work through Paul throughout the NT writings, I draw the exact opposite conclusion from Rev 2:2.

Here’s how I see it:

[Act 1:21-22 ESV] 21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us–one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.”

First off, here are the requirements for being an apostle. These were discussed when replacing the departed Judas with Matthias. They chose between candidates who had been disciples of Jesus from his baptism onward.

[Act 9:26 ESV] 26 And when he had come to Jerusalem, he attempted to join the disciples. And they were all afraid of him, for they did not believe that he was a disciple.

Clearly there was distrust here. And for good reason—Paul had been persecuting and murdering believers.

[Act 19:1, 8-10 ESV] 1 And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. … 8 And he entered the synagogue and for three months spoke boldly, reasoning and persuading them about the kingdom of God. 9 But when some became stubborn and continued in unbelief, speaking evil of the Way before the congregation, he withdrew from them and took the disciples with him, reasoning daily in the hall of Tyrannus. 10 This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

Here we have Paul arriving at Ephesus, the largest city in Asia at the time, and attempting to preach in the Synagogue for three months. He was rejected there, and moved to an academic environment for two years. So, at a minimum, 2 years and 3 months he was at Ephesus, and all of Asia heard him. Thus he was widely known throughout Asia.

[Act 21:18-24 ESV] 18 On the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. 19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law, 21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs. 22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.

Paul returns to Jerusalem and meets with James and the elders. After politely hearing of Paul’s success, they dive straight into the problem they have with him. They point out the tens of thousands of believers in Jerusalem who are all zealous for the law. What? Wait, the law was done away with, why do they care about it? But they do, because the problem they are confronting is this rumor that Paul has been teaching the Jews amongst the gentiles to forsake the law. (And obviously he has!) They insist that he take part in a Nazarite vow in order to demonstrate to the believers in Jerusalem that he is still observant of Torah. Interestingly, as you read on you find that Paul proceeds to do so, and sponsors the sacrifices that are part of the Nazarite vow. What? How on earth are Jesus’ disciples participating in any sort of sacrifice since Jesus was the ultimate and final sacrifice?

Okay, so far we see the disciples were afraid of Paul and didn’t think he was a true disciple, then Paul goes off to Ephesus for an extended period of time and all of Asia hears his teaching, then he comes back to Jerusalem and is confronted by the local assembly about this rumor he has been teaching against the law, and is required to take action to dispel such rumor.

What happens next?

[Act 21:27-30 ESV] 27 When the seven days were almost completed, the Jews from Asia, seeing him in the temple, stirred up the whole crowd and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who is teaching everyone everywhere against the people and the law and this place. Moreover, he even brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.” 29 For they had previously seen Trophimus the Ephesian with him in the city, and they supposed that Paul had brought him into the temple. 30 Then all the city was stirred up, and the people ran together. They seized Paul and dragged him out of the temple, and at once the gates were shut.

Wow, the Asian Jews, the people who know him very, very well because he’s just spent 2+ years teaching amongst them, see him in the temple and cry out for help because here is the very man who has been teaching them against the law, defiling the temple in Jerusalem. Further, they accuse him of bringing a gentile (Trophimus) into the inner courts were by law he is not allowed.

Paul is detained, for being a law breaker, and there is additional fascinating insight into his mind when he eventually stands before the sanhedrin, notes the mix of Sadducees and Pharisees present, and then exploits one of their most rancorous disagreements (resurrection of the dead), lying about the true reason he was detained in order to divide and conquer and escape to Roman protection. (And all this after insisting to his people in Acts 21:10-13, before coming to Jerusalem, that he was prepared to die at the hands of the Jews in Jerusalem for his faith.)

At this point it is interesting to contrast Paul’s experience with the detention of the Apostles in Acts 5. When the apostles are detained, an angel sets them free and instructs them to return to the temple and continue teaching. They are re-detained, but Gamaliel (supposedly Paul’s teacher) releases them, arguing that they’ve done nothing wrong and will simply fade into obscurity along with other false messianic claimants, or they could be doing God’s work in which case the sanhedrin should not interfere with them. Wow, that’s powerful. How can they be released in this manner? Well, the simple fact is they weren’t breaking the law (Torah). They were observant, thus they hadn’t done anything wrong other than preaching that Jesus was Messiah, which wasn’t against the law but was simply something the Jewish leaders of the time didn’t want to hear.

But Paul’s case goes completely differently. In fact we don’t know that he was ever released. The last thing we know of Paul is that he was languishing in prison.

We also know the apostles didn’t come to his defense:

[2Ti 4:16 ESV] 16 At my first defense no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them!

Even more telling, we also know that all of Asia abandoned him:

[2Ti 1:15 ESV] 15 You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.

Interestingly, we have no recorded instance of the Apostles referring to Paul as an Apostle. Paul refers to himself as one many times, and his traveling companion and historian Luke once refers to both Paul and Barnabas as apostles. Paul and Barnabas were both at Ephesus interestingly, so we have apostles (plural) Paul and Barnabas at Ephesus.

Just how many Apostles are there? Revelation 21:14 may give us a hint:

[Rev 21:14 ESV] 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Hmm, so Paul and perhaps Barnabas are Apostles #13 and #14?

So I get through all of the above, and then read Revelation 2:2:

[Rev 2:2 ESV] 2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false.

Uh oh, who exactly fits this description of false apostles now? Who is it that we know couldn’t convince the Jews in the synagogue of Ephesus? Who do we know was rejected by ALL of Asia? Who was so indefensible that even the real Apostles wouldn’t defend?

What is the evil in Rev 2:2? Sin! What is Sin? Lawlessness! (1 John 3:4). Who was teaching people to forsake the law in Ephesus? Paul!

So you see, if you take in the progressive revelation of God to mankind from Genesis forward chronologically, Jeremiah 31 makes absolutely perfect sense. I come back to Jeremiah 31 because it utterly destroys the idea that the new covenant is Torah-free, or that it has even yet come. It is only when you get to Paul that problems and contradictions arise.

Interestingly many Christian scholars agree that Jacob’s prophecy about Benjamin (of which tribe Paul was a member) applies to Paul:

[Gen 49:27 ESV] 27 “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf, in the morning devouring the prey [persecuting and killing believers] and at evening dividing the spoil [sowing confusion].” (Brackets contain my interjection.)

I also love this type of discussion and do not bear any ill will toward those who disagree 🙂 Iron sharpens Iron.

William
William
May 4, 2016 12:26 pm
Reply to  William

Tony:

There are two confusing responses running throughout your replies.

1. “The Sinai covenant no longer stands.”

2. “Gentiles were never part of the old covenant, so the Torah written on stone never applied to them.”

(And might I add the Torah was not written on stone. Only the 10 commandments, a teeny tiny fraction of the Torah.)

I’m primarily dealing with #1, which is disproven by Jeremiah 31. My entire emphasis on Jeremiah 31 is showing that Torah is central to both the Sinai and future covenants. Do you agree? If so, then we can avoid this particular part of the discussion, and agree that for Israel at least Torah is still central to the covenant, and the new covenant as well, which is still in the future.

Hebrews (chapter 8 quotes Jeremiah 31 and then concludes that the old covenant is getting ready to pass away), then must only apply to Jews, because the covenant that is getting ready to pass away only applies to the Jews, as is the case for the new covenant to follow.

Let’s presume perhaps the gentiles as you say aren’t bound by the Sinai covenant and God’s instructions. But let’s at least correct your assertion that the Sinai covenant no longer stands, since Jeremiah 31 clearly doesn’t support this.

Let’s look at Acts 15. The summary of the debate reads thusly:

[Act 15:19-21 ESV] 19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

What is the point of mentioning Moses, mentioning that he is taught in the synagogue every Sabbath? It’s completely superfluous unless the idea is that the gentiles coming into the faith will learn Torah as they go along. They don’t have to be immediately circumcised, and expected to be fully observant without a learning process. These believers attended synagogue and learned Torah there. Why do I take this to mean such? Well, immediately before there are in fact four Torah-based stipulations made, so there are in fact expectations made of these gentiles. Why any stipulations if the law didn’t apply in any way? Just let them join by faith and forget any requirements! Torah doesn’t even apply to them!

If there are no dietary laws binding upon gentiles, why on earth would they dream up this requirement to abstain from things polluted by idols, or from strangled animals and blood. Those are purely Torah laws. It seems to me they started with the most common sins practiced amongst the gentiles of their day. In essence they are advising the gentiles to start with the most problematic and widespread sins first, idolatry and sexual sin, and learn more Torah as you go.

Let’s face it, they weren’t sinning if the law didn’t apply to them. But they were sinning indeed and needed to stop.

Further problems arise when you factor in the already discussed passages from Rom 11 and Gal 3 where Paul eliminates any distinction between jew and gentile. If there is no distinction, why a distinction in covenantal expectations?

Paul should have instead embraced the distinction and made it clear that he was teaching against Torah only to gentiles. However, we see in Acts 21 that wasn’t the case. The apostles confronted him because he was teaching Jews against Torah. The Asian Jews cried out against him because he was teaching Jews against the law.

So the inescapable conclusion here is that even we allow that gentiles were not bound to Torah in any way, (which is unsupported by my analysis of Acts 15 above), we still have Paul teaching Jews against the law, in direct violation of the clear understanding that at least for Jews, Jeremiah 31 clearly shows Torah as central to both the Sinai covenant and the one to replace it.

That still makes Paul a false teacher.

As for your opinion of the early believers, it is known that the earliest followers of Jesus continued to worship in the synagogue and observe Torah, and it is known that there were a mix of Jews and Gentiles.

However, let’s presume your jew/gentile distinction, and suppose that perhaps the believers in Judea were all Jews still rightfully under their covenant. The Ebionites were a Jewish sect, so why would Irenaeus label them heretics? They’re Jews! You’ve argued that gentiles were never under the covenant, which I’ll allow simply for the sake of argument, but Jeremiah 31 specifically details that Torah will ALWAYS be part of the covenant with Israel. Thus Israel following their covenant are not heretics! So Irenaeus clearly didn’t see this distinction. However, the church was already progressing well beyond the teachings of Jesus, who as we’ve seen clearly upheld Torah. Irenaeus’ heretics may just as well be my heroes.

Any way you come at this results in problems. If we note the distinction and agree that Jews have a different covenant and different expectations, then Jews at least are still under their covenant as Jeremiah 31 shows, and cannot be heretics.

William
William
May 4, 2016 6:08 pm
Reply to  William

Torah in the Tanakh is the first five books of the Bible. When Jeremiah 31:31-34 says under the new covenant Torah will be written on their hearts, that has a very clear and specific meaning to the Israelites to whom Jeremiah’s prophecy was directed. There is no basis whatsoever for not understanding or acknowledging this.

Again, with respect to Jeremiah 31, there is no room for NOT concluding that Torah, with it’s single precise meaning, is central to the future new covenant.

You say I have yet to deal with Acts 15, but I have. I’ve shown that the decision was made to require the gentiles to observe four laws based on Torah. This is proof that at least some Torah was applicable to gentiles, plain and simple. You cannot state the Torah was never applicable to gentiles in light of this. I may not be able to say this is proof that the entire Torah was applicable, but neither can you say Acts 15 proves no applicability whatsoever. The applicability of this subset of Torah law lends credence to the interpretation of the Moses verse as indicating additional Torah learning. And indeed the believing gentiles did attend synagogue, where the primary activities were prayer and reading/learning from the Torah scroll.

You have a very creative view of the dispute between the apostles and Paul in Acts 21. It clearly reads that the apostles were concerned that he was in fact teaching improperly against the law, and needed to dispel those rumors. When he was eventually detained immediately after the nazarite vow for BREAKING THE LAW, due in part to bringing Trophimus the gentile into restricted parts of the temple during that very vow, the apostles didn’t come to his defense. The puzzle pieces here don’t fit your view. Especially considering the fact that James, the leader of the assembly in Jerusalem and part of this group who confronted Paul, penned statements like “[Jas 1:25 ESV] 25 But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing.”, “[Jas 2:17 ESV] 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” and “[Jas 2:24 ESV] 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

Was John writing to Jews only in Revelation? Doubtful since the first few chapters are addressed to various assemblies outside Israel. So when he writes things like:

[Rev 12:17 ESV] 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

or

[Rev 14:12 ESV] 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

is he speaking to Jews only, or all believers?

There are so many NT writings which uphold Torah. Did Jesus speak only to Jews or are his teachings for gentiles as well?

[Mat 19:16-17 ESV] 16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Don’t be so quick to say Peter called Paul’s writings scripture. There are two problems with that:

1. The passage reads:

[2Pe 3:15-17 ESV] 15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

Sure there is a vague reference to “other Scriptures” that sort of sounds like the writer may be equating Paul’s writings to scripture, but if this is truly the case (unlikely as I will address in point 2) he also says Paul’s writings are difficult to understand and warns the reader to avoid being carried away with the ERROR OF LAWLESS PEOPLE as the result of reading them.

2. I don’t generally argue about the above passage because:

The earliest certain reference to II Peter is in Origen (3rd century), whom Eusebius (H.E. vi. 25) refers to as having said that Peter left one acknowledged epistle, and ‘perhaps also a second, for it is disputed… .’

The very earliest mention was long after Peter’s day, and the authorship was in dispute even then. II Peter had a difficult time entering the Christian canon due to this. I personally think the evidence is compelling that 2 Peter is not Peter’s writing. It wasn’t accepted into the canon without difficulty either.

Outside of this vague reference in 2 Peter all references to scripture in the NT refer to the existing writings (the “old testament”).

Again, Jesus clearly said:

[Mat 7:21-23 ESV] 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

Was he speaking to Jews only?

The NT is actually full of instructions issued by various people, if we want to drop Torah and just look at those. I recall somewhere along the line reading an article where someone had extracted every single NT instruction and compiled a list of NT instructions that was at least 1,000 long! One can argue that the NT presents even more commandments to follow than Torah!

William
William
May 5, 2016 6:07 am
Reply to  William

Tony:

This really isn’t that difficult. We can go round and round about individual verses or passages, but the big picture is clear.

First, Christianity absolutely appropriates the new covenant promise for itself, and believes that the new testament = the new covenant, when Jeremiah completely abolishes this idea and shows that the new covenant conditions have yet to be met.

Hebrews 8:13, after quoting the Jeremiah promise, attempts to show that the old covenant is about to pass away, clearly acknowledging that the writer is expectant of a quick return by Jesus to set up the messianic kingdom. Nearly 2,000 year later that hasn’t happened, and it’s clear that the author of Hebrews was incorrect in his assumption. The new covenant has still not arrived. However, the author nowhere claims that God’s instructions are going to be passing away, only the covenant, and the replacement covenant according to the promise includes God’s instructions as a central part of it, very clearly.

Jesus taught Torah. No way around this. There is no teaching of Jesus indicating the Torah is done with, passing away, etc. A chronological reading of scripture clearly shows a perfect Torah continuity from Genesis through the gospels.

Sin is lawlessness. Law defines sin. There is no separating sin from the law. One cannot exist without the other. Whenever there appears an exhortation to avoid sin, it is by the very definition of sin an exhortation to uphold God’s standard of righteousness. Furthermore, many dozens of NT writings clearly exhort the followers of Jesus to obey the commandments—all the way into John’s Revelation. I have nowhere said that faith never plays a role, as you have subtly implied. Faith always played a role. There is no purpose in following commandments blindly. Faith motivates us to seek and to obey God.

Jesus did not come to establish a new religion, nor to overturn Torah. His early followers, those who understood this, continued to be Jews, attended synagogue, and followed Torah. Marcion the Greek, in the second century, recognized that Paul could not be reconciled with the Hebrew scriptures, and embraced Paul and his idea of a lawless faith-only belief with an all forgiving God who needed no obedience from his followers, while rejecting the Hebrew God altogether. He was the originator of the terms “new” and “old” testament. He was labeled a heretic by the early “church”, because obviously this new religion had no leg to stand on without being able to establish some sort of continuity between the faith of the children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and this emerging new religion.

Already in the second century your cherished church fathers were disgustingly anti-semitic, with Justin Martyr penning this gem:

“The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of your land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, God imposed upon you the observance of the sabbath as a mark.”

Here’s a church father interpreting the Sabbath, made Holy by God at the dawn of creation, as a brand of shame on the Jews. Disgusting. God chose his people and said they were to be a light unto the nations, and then the “church” came along and abolished the Sabbath along with all of God’s instructions, persecuted God’s people, committed the worst kinds of atrocities against them and anyone who dared to stray from church teachings. The canon was established in the fourth century after this new religion was made the official religion of the state, after God’s holidays had been overthrown and new pagan holidays instituted, Sabbath worship outlawed, etc. Paul was not unanimously included in the canon, and yet he HAD to be because he was the basis for everything the church practiced.

At the same time, the writings of church fathers discuss the Nazarenes or Ebionites, still observing the law, into the seventh century.

And yet they, and I as you have not so subtly stated, are heretical. Nice.

When I say that Paul is the only writer to abolish Torah, I don’t claim that there wasn’t a discussion of how to bring gentiles into the assembly of Jesus’ followers. You want to say that this discussion in Acts 15 proves that Paul wasn’t the only one who taught the non-applicability of Torah. That isn’t what I assert at all. I assert that Paul is the only one to completely abolish Torah, which completely contradicts the Jeremiah promise of the new covenant, and flies in the face of what Jesus lived and taught, and what the 12 apostles lived and taught, for they all continued to observe Torah. And Acts 15 proves that they began to require a beginning level of Torah to incoming gentiles. That Torah would be learned and followed is the natural conclusion one can reasonably derive from the nature of sin and the otherwise completely superfluous mention of Moses being taught in all the synagogues in the same passage.

Shalom. I wish you well and as you are unwilling to continue this discussion, I submit this as my closing statement.